Talk:п'ять

two declensions

@Atitarev This page as well as Horokh list two declensions for п'ять and шість. Do you know what the deal is? One of the declensions looks like Russian, the other one looks like the declension of 3 and 4, and has accusative = genitive. Benwing2 (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Both declensions are valid. Applicable to both animate and inanimate. I don't see any usage difference either. Probably completely synonymous. @Voltaigne: Do you agree? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Benwing2: I agree. Ukrainian grammars list both declensions as valid, with no indication of usage difference. E.g.:

• § 105.2 of Українська національна комісія з питань правопису (2019 May 22) “Український правопис 2019 року [Ukrainian orthography of 2019]”, in mon.gov.ua‎^[1], Ministry of Education and Science of Ukraine
• Praktische Kurzgrammatik der ukrainischen Sprache By Svetlana Amir-Babenko, Franz Pfliegl, page 46

The frequency counts in Horokh indicate that the second-listed variants (-ох, -ом, -ома) are less common.

Voltaigne (talk) 08:52, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Atitarev FWIW, Routledge's "Ukrainian: A Comprehensive Grammar" claims there is a difference between the two. It lists both forms with a slash separating the two (e.g. "G: п'яти́/п'ято́х"), but for accusative it says "A: = nom. or gen." and has a comment after the declension tables that says "Note particularly that, of the variant pairs, the latter members are as a rule used only with animates". I don't know if we can verify this with examples, but it suggests that the former style (п'ять, п'яти́, п'ятьма́) can be used with either animates or inanimates but the latter style (п'ятьо́х, п'ятьо́м, п'ятьома́) only with animates. If true, it would explain why the latter are less common. Benwing2 (talk) 04:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Voltaigne: "п'ятьох книжок" / "шістьох книжок", "п'ятьом книжкам" / "шістьом книжкам" are valid but I am having trouble finding "п'ятьо́х" or "шістьо́х" in the accusative with inanimate nouns. I think in the accusative, only "п'ять" and "шість" should be used with inanimate nouns.

I reverted my previous edits with a ping because I used an incorrect noun form "книжки", it's книжок but I only find genitive examples. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Atitarev Also, in the same book, section 5.1.3 "П'ять and above" specifically mentions inanimate and animate accusative in the context of п'ять. You may be able to see the text here [2] by clicking on Preview. Benwing2 (talk) 05:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: The preview is not showing enough meaningful text, unfortunately. It ends on "чоти́ри". Are you able to quote the text, if you find it helpful? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev Google is not letting me select the text but I emailed you a screen shot of the text. Benwing2 (talk) 05:36, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Got your email thanks. The way I read it (the relevant bit regarding the accusative case). It's either equal to genitive or nominative but they don't go in detail again regarding the accusative case.

Here are my examples in the accusative:

• я бачу п'ять/п'ятьох чоловіків (animate)
• він написав п'ять книжок (inanimate). п'ятьох книжок is not used in the accusative, only in genitive. (Unlike Russian, кни́жка (knýžka) is more common than кни́га (knýha) in the regular sense "book".)
• All other cases can be as they are in the table, both forms are valid, the 1st being more common. @Voltaigne: What do you think? Do you agree that "п'ятьох", "шістьох" can't be used with inanimate nouns in the accusative? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Benwing2: I've been having a look at the search results for п'ятьох in the Reverso context database. When used accusatively it is almost exclusively with animates - with only one apparent exception that I have been able to spot so far among the 1,217 search results:

2018 May 28, “Китай активно розробляє ядерну зброю нового покоління”, in ukrinform.ua‎^[3]:

Так, США проводять менше одного такого випробування протягом місяця, тоді як середній показник Китаю сягає п'ятьох тестів на місяць.

Tak, SŠA provodjatʹ menše odnoho takoho vyprobuvannja protjahom misjacja, todi jak serednij pokaznyk Kytaju sjahaje pʺjatʹox testiv na misjacʹ.

The United States carries out less than one such test a month, while China's average reaches five tests a month.

Conversely there are numerous examples of п'ятьох being used with inanimates in the genitive and locative (two examples for each are given below):

• Genitive

(Can we date this quote?), “Філософія та математика: питання про взаємозв’язок. Реферат”, in osvita.ua‎^[4]:

Деякі джерела приписують піфагорійцям навіть такі видатні результати, як побудова п'ятьох правильних багатогранників.

Dejaki džerela prypysujutʹ pifahorijcjam navitʹ taki vydatni rezulʹtaty, jak pobudova pʺjatʹox pravylʹnyx bahatohrannykiv.

Some sources attribute to the Pythagoreans even such outstanding results as the construction of five regular polyhedra.

(Can we date this quote?), (Please provide the book title or journal name):

На протязі п'ятьох років Елізабет займалася господарством та вихованням дітей.

Na protjazi pʺjatʹox rokiv Elizabet zajmalasja hospodarstvom ta vyxovannjam ditej.

For five years, Elizabeth ran the household and raised their children.

• Locative

(Can we date this quote?), (Please provide the book title or journal name):

Їхнє переробне устаткування працює на всіх п'ятьох континентах.

Jixnje pererobne ustatkuvannja pracjuje na vsix pʺjatʹox kontynentax.

Their processing equipment is in operation on all five continents.

(Can we date this quote?), “Львівський музей історії релігії”, in museum.lviv.ua‎^[5]:

Виставки експонуються у п'ятьох виставкових залах.

Vystavky eksponujutʹsja u pʺjatʹox vystavkovyx zalax.

The works are beautifully displayed in five exhibition rooms.

Reverso also yields several examples of п'ятьом (dative) and п'ятьома (instrumental) with inanimates. Voltaigne (talk) 09:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Voltaigne, Benwing2: Thank you for the response and example but I am afraid, @Voltaigne has misunderstood or maybe I wasn't clear. The examples confirm what we already know. The only question I have is about the accusative, not any other case. In my opinion "п'ятьох" can only be used with animate nouns but "п'ять" with both animate and inanimate. So, the current declension tables and all the sources are not accurate for the accusative case only but other cases are correct. Can you comment on this only?

• я бачу п'ять/п'ятьох чоловіків (animate) - both п'ять and п'ятьох can be used
• він написав п'ять книжок (inanimate) - only п'ять can be used.

BTW, in your example "тоді як середній показник Китаю сягає п'ятьох тестів на місяць", it's genitive, not accusative. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:54, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Voltaigne Is it possible to use п'яти́ in the animate accusative, or only п'ять? Benwing2 (talk) 04:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Voltaigne: Only "п'ять" IMO. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)