Talk:աստղ
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Vahagn Petrosyan
@Vahagn Petrosyan The WA pronounciation is just like ասղ -- the t is deleted. I've never heard it pronounced as աստղ or աստըղ Hovsepig (talk) 07:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Hovsepig: that's a dialectal form. See http://www.nayiri.com/imagedDictionaryBrowser.jsp?dictionaryId=7&dt=HY_HY&pageNumber=284. The standard is with a -տ- (-t-). --Vahag (talk) 10:40, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
@Hovsepig, are you sure it is [ɑstχ] and not [ˈɑstəχ]? --Vahag (talk) 17:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: I asked speakers in Turkey, they said [ˈɑstəʁ], and so they are likely the origin of what is cited as the standard pronunciation. I asked speakers in Lebanon and Canada, they (and I) had never heard of [ˈɑstəʁ] or [ˈɑstəx] before. We all said [ˈɑstχ] or [ˈɑsχ] (both acceptable). The issue of epenthesis in final clusters is highly variable across dialects and lexical entries. Lack of epenthesis is generally common in early Istanbul Armenian, while epenthesis is widespread in Lebanese Armenian. There are of course lexical exceptions and variations. Some lexemes like փոքր exist in modern Lebanese WArm with and without schwa, with the preference somewhat skewed towards epenthesis. But then there are very few lexemes that go for no epenthesis at like like աստղ in Lebanese WArm. I'm not sure if, statistically, you want to base the standard pronunciation on Istanbul Armenian (the previous cultural epicenter of WArm speech) or on Beirut Armenian (which became the epicenter since the genocide and is the ultimate origin of large chunks of WArm speakers in Europe and the Americas). — This unsigned comment was added by Hovsepig (talk • contribs).
- @Hovsepig: I prefer showing the dialectal variation not in the pronunciation section but in the alternative forms section using dialectological notation, as in աստված (astvac). The dialectological forms are well-documented in literature, while their IPA correspondences are disputed. --Vahag (talk) 18:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: that makes sense. Should I remove the [asx] pronunciation from the pronunciation section though? I think it's more fair to call it a phonologically reduced form rather an dialectal form. As for documentation, yeah , it doesn't help that documentation from Armenia doesn't use IPA... Hovsepig (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- It is a dialectal form as recorded by Ačaṙyan (Akn, Karin, Rodosto, Sebastia). I guess it has passed into colloquial version of Standard Western Armenian as spoken in Lebanon. I am not sure how to treat such cases. It can stay in the pronunciation section for now. --Vahag (talk) 18:27, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: that makes sense. Should I remove the [asx] pronunciation from the pronunciation section though? I think it's more fair to call it a phonologically reduced form rather an dialectal form. As for documentation, yeah , it doesn't help that documentation from Armenia doesn't use IPA... Hovsepig (talk) 18:17, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Hovsepig: I prefer showing the dialectal variation not in the pronunciation section but in the alternative forms section using dialectological notation, as in աստված (astvac). The dialectological forms are well-documented in literature, while their IPA correspondences are disputed. --Vahag (talk) 18:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: I asked speakers in Turkey, they said [ˈɑstəʁ], and so they are likely the origin of what is cited as the standard pronunciation. I asked speakers in Lebanon and Canada, they (and I) had never heard of [ˈɑstəʁ] or [ˈɑstəx] before. We all said [ˈɑstχ] or [ˈɑsχ] (both acceptable). The issue of epenthesis in final clusters is highly variable across dialects and lexical entries. Lack of epenthesis is generally common in early Istanbul Armenian, while epenthesis is widespread in Lebanese Armenian. There are of course lexical exceptions and variations. Some lexemes like փոքր exist in modern Lebanese WArm with and without schwa, with the preference somewhat skewed towards epenthesis. But then there are very few lexemes that go for no epenthesis at like like աստղ in Lebanese WArm. I'm not sure if, statistically, you want to base the standard pronunciation on Istanbul Armenian (the previous cultural epicenter of WArm speech) or on Beirut Armenian (which became the epicenter since the genocide and is the ultimate origin of large chunks of WArm speakers in Europe and the Americas). — This unsigned comment was added by Hovsepig (talk • contribs).