Talk:կակաչ
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Calak in topic Iranian
See also: ყაყაჩო
Iranian
[edit]@Vahagn Petrosyan: Of course the similarity to the known خشخاش (xašxâš, “poppy”) won’t be a coincidence. The Daryab Pashto Glossary knows as variants to this plant name خاشخاش (xâšxâš), قشقاق (qašqâš), قاشقاش (qâšqâš), which are apart from the last also known in [Dictionary of Pashto Synonyms and related Words Dictionary of Pashto Synonyms and related Words. Fay Freak (talk) 11:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Fay Freak: yes, the relation is likely in view of the other Caucasian forms I found. The k ~ x alternation can perhaps be explained by User:Calak's law mentioned at Talk:خندق. --Vahag (talk) 18:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- In my accent, this is قاشقاشە (qaşqaşe). Probably related to قاش (qaş, “section, slice”), cognate to Persian قاچ (qâč, “chunk, cut, section, slice, wedge”), evidently a Turkic loanword.--Calak (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- Well this it is more similar to قاشقاشە (qaşqaşe).--Calak (talk) 20:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- This alternation (/q/ ~ /χ/) is common in Turkic without any sound laws; without any apparent logic many Persian words with خ (x) and up having қ (q) in Kazakh and other until a century ago barely literate Turkic languages, e.g. the descendants on خیار (xiyâr). In Azerbaijani the pronunciations of (q⟩ in auslaut positions are spirantized, and sometimes it is expressed in the script as in baxmaq against its cognates. Due to opium trafficking going to Turkic lands – still the most frequent tradable item with travellers in those remote mountains – the Armenian and Georgian forms may even be because of Turkic – I see no pre-13th century quotes.
- The evident Turkic word is Karakhanid قَجْ (qač), Old Turkic 𐰴𐰲 (qač, “how many”), Turkish kaç (“how many”) (present with different suffix end morpheme in Kazakh қанша (qanşa)) etc.)? (Borrowed like تکه (teke, “piece”).) Fay Freak (talk) 23:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
- I never liked Pictet's etymology, as the Sanskrit terms are late and obscure. The Turkic origin is intriguing, but I am not completely convinced. The Armenian is attested late, but the dialectal variation means it is old. Besides, Turkic k and q give ք, ղ, խ (kʻ, ġ, x) in Armenian. Feel free to add your ideas in the entry of خشخاش (xašxâš). --Vahag (talk) 11:08, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- Here we can also add Northern Kurdish kaçkaçk (“dried (and sliced) fruit”) and Central Kurdish قاشقاش (qaşqaş, “sliced fruit”).--Calak (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- I also found Kurdish qaşqaş, kûzkûz ‘Lychnis flos-cuculi’ in
{{R:ku:FNNAK}}, a plant with seeds similar to poppy. I wonder why is Persian قاش (qāš, “section, slice”) considered a Turkic borrowing.{{R:fa:TMN|page=389|vol=III}}derives homonymous Persian قاش (qāš, “eyebrow”) from Turkic kaş, but it is a different word. On page 391 he derives Persian قاش قاش (qāš-qāš, “scattered, dispersed”) from Turkish, but I think the borrowing can be in the opposite direction. If we find an Iranian origin for the "slice, bit" word, then the Armenian and Georgian are derived from unattested Middle Iranian. @Calak, I sent you the remaining volumes of Hassandoust. Does he have an entry for قاش (qāš)? --Vahag (talk) 14:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)- Thank you Vahag.
- About Kurdish kûzkûz; In CK kûz and qaş are synonyms ("section, slice").
- No, there wasn't any entry for قاش (qāš) or قاچ (qāç) unfortunatly.--Calak (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- I also found Kurdish qaşqaş, kûzkûz ‘Lychnis flos-cuculi’ in
- Here we can also add Northern Kurdish kaçkaçk (“dried (and sliced) fruit”) and Central Kurdish قاشقاش (qaşqaş, “sliced fruit”).--Calak (talk) 12:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- I never liked Pictet's etymology, as the Sanskrit terms are late and obscure. The Turkic origin is intriguing, but I am not completely convinced. The Armenian is attested late, but the dialectal variation means it is old. Besides, Turkic k and q give ք, ղ, խ (kʻ, ġ, x) in Armenian. Feel free to add your ideas in the entry of خشخاش (xašxâš). --Vahag (talk) 11:08, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
- In my accent, this is قاشقاشە (qaşqaşe). Probably related to قاش (qaş, “section, slice”), cognate to Persian قاچ (qâč, “chunk, cut, section, slice, wedge”), evidently a Turkic loanword.--Calak (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
