Talk:صمام

Attestations for صَمَّام

Dear @Fenakhay, the form صَمَّام is definitely common enough to be the main headword. I've never heard the form صِمَام until today in this article and it appears as a dictionary form that is not really widely used in real life nowadays. Nevertheless even if you have objections the form صَمَّام should at least be included and not completely omitted. Below are some attestations (can't post full links so just connect the dot with the youtu part):

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRaW22hx78g&t=53 (0:54 & 0:58)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVbHgpgCUo4&t=236 (3:55)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO3xbTMon8c (2:20)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAwcmEbh7ZI&t=664 (11:05)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ9EyAmXkis&t=43 (0:43)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ8ulfjqNJk&t=2527 (42:07)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seak62qHQ_A&t=701 (11:40)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ans1wR_V_zg&t=53 (0:52) --KoveytBud (talk) 12:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fenakhay In your recent edit you removed all mentions of the صَمَّام (ṣammām) form except for one entry in the pronunciation section where you state it is a dialectal pronunciation. How did you reach the conclusion that this pronunciation is dialectal? The videos I posted show Arabic speakers from different places using that pronunciation. Furthermore, you should not have removed صَمَّام (ṣammām) form from the head of the entry (along with its plural) and the inflection table. This information is helpful for people looking up this specific form. Please remember that Wiktionary is not a prescriptivist dictionary. Even though صِمَام (ṣimām) may be the form found in dictionaries, that does not make it the only correct form and the only form that should be included when another form is used widely as well. I'll be reverting your edit in a few days unless you have an objection. --KoveytBud (talk) 01:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@KoveytBud: You are not wrong. But also note that Standard Arabic in a way is a difficult dead language, having some details that few speakers master; similarly there are Chinese characters which few people correctly pronounce and then some foreign devil challenges natives and posts it on YouTube. We don’t exactly claim anymore that it is wrong though, but mention both in the pronunciation section; we can also say that IPA^(key): /sˤi.maːm/ is “very formal” and IPA^(key): /sˤam.maːm/ “relaxed standard” or something similar, possibly also qualifying for certain regions since Fenakhay affirms having not heard the other pronunciation while you affirm not having heard the opposite pronunciation, although I have difficulties checking all regions, which are not regularly shown on video sites. Fay Freak (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fay Freak I agree that Arabic is a hard dead language, but Arabic entries here cover both Classical and Modern Standard Arabic together under one header, so we have to provide information on both. The various examples I posted (there are more if needed) include many instances of the (likely) novel form صَمَّام (ṣammām) being used in different circumstances. The form is used widely enough to warrant its inclusion in all parts of the entry and not just the pronunciation section. I'm not advocating for including all forms of a word someone might have uttered in all Arabic entries, but some forms are simply and provably common enough that they ought to be included if we're trying to build an accurate descriptivist dictionary. I understand that languages such as Arabic and Hebrew can be tricky since the header includes both their Classical and Modern forms. However, we shouldn't just favor one form and cancel out the other. We can mention all the helpful information, if any, in a section such as the usage notes section, but we shouldn't ignore a form that is in actual use simply because dictionaries based on Classical Arabic don't use it. --KoveytBud (talk) 05:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)