Talk:ტომატი

From Russian?

@Vahagn Petrosyan In that case I would have expected the outcome to rather be *ტამატი (ṭamaṭi), according to the Russian pronunciation. I suppose a spelling-pronunciation is possible, but so is borrowing from some non-Russian language. Nicodene (talk) 07:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: this is a learned borrowing, reflecting the spelling of the Russian etymon, unlike პროსტა (ṗrosṭa) and other slang words which were borrowed orally. We have been over this many times. All internationalisms in the Soviet period entered via Russian. Vahag (talk) 09:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan You may have 'been over this many times', but this is the first time as far as I am concerned. Nothing about the word ტომატი makes it obvious that it entered Georgian and other nearby languages in Soviet times, as opposed to the last three decades of globalization, but a look through various dates in Google Books shows that it did. In that case the etymology should use {{lbor|ka|ru}}. Nicodene (talk) 09:32, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

This is the first time we are discussing ტომატი, but not the first time I have to convince you that a Georgian internationalism is borrowed via Russian. I understand you are a diasporan. But for anyone born in the USSR a Russian-mediated internationalism is immediately recognizable. It has the same shape as the Russian word, the same shades of meaning and is used in all the languages of the USSR in the same way. Vahag (talk) 09:59, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Also, even if the word had entered in the last 30 years, it would still almost certainly be via Russian or in a few cases via English. There is no knowledge of other European languages in our part of the world. Vahag (talk) 10:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I think you're underestimating the English borrowings, as there has been a flood of them here (in Tbilisi). In any case, yes, western borrowings in the last 30 years have virtually all come either via Russian or English. Now that you mention it, the initial /t'/ (as opposed to */tʰ/) of ტომატი is another hint that it did not arrive via English. Nicodene (talk) 11:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The best hint is the meaning. The European "tomato" words refer to the plant and the fruit, whereas in Russian it also refers to the tomato paste and sauce, as in кильки в томате. Vahag (talk) 11:36, 2 August 2022 (UTC)