Talk:⚦

One of the definitions

This symbol is not the transgender symbol, why is it included in the definition here? Nerocratic (talk) 11:19, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

The symbol ⚧ is sometimes transgender, but sometimes gender-neutral: male, female or androgyne. ⚦ or ⚨ is the gender-queer part of that. kwami (talk) 02:03, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

RFV discussion: November 2022–April 2024

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⚦

Translingual. Rfv-sense: transgender. This has been/is the target of some edit-warring which is probably best solved by adding supporting quotations. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 21:45, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Since we only have Unicode as support, it would indeed be good to have some supporting instances. I went through the Unicode history, and it was added in version 4.1. There were two revisions to the proposal by Michael Everson, the latest being L2/03-364 (N2663). He doesn't give an illustration for this use, only says (re. an illustration of its alchemical use) that

this symbol is also used now to indicate "transgendered sexuality" by some members of the LGBT community.

I'm tempted to delete this definition as being unsupported, except that the Unicode chart does say "= transgender". Indeed, I did delete it, only to have someone else restore it. Personally, I don't think the Unicode chart is sufficient evidence for a Wiktionary definition.

PS. As evidence for the unreliability of Unicode, note that the Unicode chart used to say that ⚥ was "= hermaphroditic (in entomology)", based on Everson's proposal, until I pointed out the error and they changed it to "(in botany)" this year. kwami (talk) 21:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

you know the unicode charts are used on dozens of wiki pages in multiple different languages, I understand its not the be all end all but still seems silly to only be making a big deal about it on this page, especially since its been in the unicode like this since 2005 with no issues. You dont think its a little weird to have its unicode symbol and link right underneath the main picture of the page while saying its not good enough?

I'm not sure how the definition is unsupported though, a pretty quick search online shows that its not uncommon for people to use the sign as an alternative to the main transgender one. I'm not sure what kind of quote you guys want, its not like theres one voice to turn to that has the final say on this stuff, but to pretend like its not commonly used as a synonym to the main transgender symbol seems intentinally ignorant Kollie78 (talk) 10:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

A Google Books search does not turn up much. Instead of imputing intestinal ignorance to other editors, why don't you supply pointers to citable sources using the symbol in this sense?  --Lambiam 07:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I dont know what kind of results you're looking for, but you arent going to find any definitve source from a book on this topic, the more commonly used transgender symbol doesnt really pull up anything either from a google books search.

https://anunnakiray.com/all-the-gender-symbols/

https://twitter.com/abbychavastein/status/1099739367164260359

https://www.amazon.com/Transgender-Self-Inking-Stamping-Crafting-Planners/dp/B09853BBWG?th=1

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1037401247/male-with-stroke-sign-transgender-gender https://web.archive.org/web/20210601020917/http://transgendersociety.yolasite.com/history-of-transgender-symbolism.php Kollie78 (talk) 08:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

(Just want to respond to this before this gets archived:) I appreciate the links, but this just seems like 'lists of symbols' (or sites that print any unicode character etc anyone wants, on demand, onto merch) uncritically copying it from unicode or each other without anyone actually using it; it doesn't seem to have taken root and been used. Even the pansexual P symbol, which seems to have originated by someone inserting it into Wikipedia, took root enough (even if marginally) that I can find people who actually bought merch with it and wear it, etc. But the Stein twitter thread, which is about her necklace with its trans symbol on it? is about the conventional trans symbol, the circle with things coming off it in three places (not just one). One of the infographics she pulled from shutterstock (watermark and all) to explain the three-prong symbol, does also include this one-prong symbol, but I don't see any evidence of it actually being used, only mentioned (seemingly uncritically copied) 'lists of symbols' like that. We can revisit this in the future if better evidence comes up, but I'm just not seeing any yet. - -sche (discuss) 16:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

RFV-deleted — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 09:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)