Talk:放物線

Etymology

@Eirikr, Poketalker: Is this edit okay? This word may have been coined in China by Alexander Wylie and Li Shanlan in 《代微積拾級》 (1859) which is a translation of Elias Loomis's Elements of Analytical Geometry and of the Differential and Integral Calculus (1851), which was later translated by 福田理軒 and 福田半 as Japanese 《代微積拾級訳解》 (1872) [1], but the current etymology is too brief, and I'm not familiar with the syntax of {{coinage}}. KevinUp (talk) 15:50, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@KevinUp, Poketalker, anyone else, I've sunk too much time into this today.  :) How about the following?

• In the Chinese lemma entry, presumably at 拋物線／抛物线 (pāowùxiàn) (we also need a kyūjitai Japanese entry on that page):

Possibly coined by [[w:Alexander Wylie (missionary)|Alexander Wylie]] and [[w:Li Shanlan|Li Shanlan]] in {{w2|zh|v:Subject:華製新漢語及中文固有語/其他用詞#李善蘭、偉烈亞力《代微積拾級》|《代微積拾級》}} (1859), a translation of {{w|Elias Loomis}}'s ''Elements of Analytical Geometry and of the Differential and Integral Calculus'' (1851).  Appears to be a {{calque|nocap=1|zh|en|parabola}}, formed as a compound of {{compound|zh|拋|t1=[[throw]]|物|t2=[[thing]]|線|tr2=sen|t2=[[line]]}}, perhaps in reference to the etymology of ''[[parabola#Etymology|parabola]]''.

• It appears that the Japanese work was a fresh translation of the English, where the translators used the earlier Chinese work as a reference -- at least, if I read the foreword correctly (see here), where the foreword author explicitly mentions the Chinese work, calling it the 上海訳本 (Shanhai yakuhon, “Shanghai translated book”). As such, the Japanese term may represent a borrowing + reanalysis. Notably, Japanese dictionaries consistently show this term as 抛物 + 線. This parallels the stated composition of term 抛物面, as a compound of 抛物 + 面.

(That said, I also see evidence of 抛物線面, composed as a compound of 抛物線 + 面, so it's possible that 抛物面 is an abbreviation as opposed to a compound. I don't have dates for these other terms.)

I note that the Chinese work at Wikiversity (《代微積拾級》) does not include 拋物面／抛物面 (pāowùmiàn), 拋物線面／抛物线面, or paraboloid.

Distilling the above, I'd suggest the following in the Japanese lemma entry, presumably at 放物線:

Appears in Japanese in 1872 in the {{m|ja||代微積拾級訳解|tr=Dai Biseki Jikkyū Yakkai|lit=Translation and Explication of Algebraic and Differential Calculus}}, a Japanese translation by {{w2|ja|福田理軒}} (''Fukuda Riken'') and {{m|ja||福田半|tr=Fukuda Han}} of the 1851 book ''[https://books.google.com/books?id=lcQEAAAAYAAJ Elements of Analytical Geometry and of the Differential and Integral Calculus]'' by {{w|Elias Loomis}}.  According to the foreword,<ref>'''1872''', {{w2|ja|福田理軒}} (''Fukuda Riken'') and {{m|ja||福田半|tr=Fukuda Han}} translators, {{m|ja||代微積拾級訳解|tr=Dai Biseki Jikkyū Yakkai}}.  [http://archive.wul.waseda.ac.jp/kosho/ni02/ni02_00694/ni02_00694_p0003.jpg Image at Waseda University] of the foreword from  (in Japanese). The text is an 1872 Japanese translation of the 1851 book [https://books.google.com/books?id=lcQEAAAAYAAJ ''Elements of Analytical Geometry and of the Differential and Integral Calculus''] by {{w|Elias Loomis}}.</ref> the translators referenced an earlier Chinese translation from 1859, so the term likely derives originally from {{bor|ja|zh|sort=ほうぶつせん|拋物線}} (see that entry for further details).

According to other Japanese sources,<ref name="KDJ">{{R:Kokugo Dai Jiten}}</ref><ref name="DJR">{{R:Daijirin}}</ref><ref name="DJS">{{R:Daijisen}}</ref><ref name="SMK5">{{R:Shinmeikai5}}</ref> analyzed as a compound of {{compound|ja|抛物|tr1=hōbutsu|pos1=literally “throwing thing”, perhaps in reference to the etymology of ''[[parabola#Etymology|parabola]]''|線|tr2=sen|t2=[[line]]}}.  See also related term {{m|ja|放物面|tr=hōbutsumen||[[paraboloid]]}}.

Let me know what you think. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Eirikr: Looks good to me. Everything seems to be in order, so I've updated the etymology of Chinese 拋物線／抛物线 (pāowùxiàn). I think the kyūjitai entry would be at 抛物線 (different page from Chinese), because the Japanese standard is 抛 (U+629B) rather than 拋 (U+62CB). As for the etymology of 抛物面 (hōbutsumen, “paraboloid”), it is hard to say whether it is a Japanese coinage or Chinese coinage. In recent years, modern Chinese scholars have found that many wasei kango were actually coined in China first, but we don't have evidence of 抛物面 yet.

I think the Japanese etymology above is well-written, so you may update it if you like. KevinUp (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I'd misunderstood that 抛 was already considered shinjitai of 拋, so thank you for correcting me on that.

Also, @Huhu9001 and I were discussing the format of 抛物線, wherein s/he mentioned redundancy. I've been confused what redundancy was at issue, since the 抛物線 page itself didn't have any apparent redundancy as viewed -- I think now that s/he meant redundancy not within that one entry, but between the 抛物線 and 放物線 entries with regard to where the {{ja-daiyouji}} instance should go.

Ultimately, it might want to go into the bottom of the table / frame generated by {{ja-see}}. Pinging @Dine2016 as well, what do you think? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the redundancy, {{ja-daiyouji}} was created for compounds containing 代用字 (daiyōji) such as 放物線 rather than 抛物線, as explained in the documentation. Also, alternative spelling entries don't usually have an etymology header, so maybe that's the issue. Perhaps the etymology can be turned into a usage notes instead. KevinUp (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

• Ah, the template documentation text is a bit ambiguous -- "used in the etymology section of Japanese compounds spelled with 代用字 (daiyōji)" could mean "used in the entry for the compound, whichever spelling". I didn't understand that it was intended only for the newer spelling. Perhaps that could be clarified?

Also, sometimes alt forms can benefit from additional information about how the spelling was derived. I think any information about derivation is ultimately about etymology, be it regarding the phonemic realization, or the graphemic (i.e. spelling).

For this specific case of 抛物線 and 放物線, I'm fine with there being just the one instance of {{ja-daiyouji}}. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:18, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

• I've reworded Template:ja-daiyouji/documentation to make things clearer and moved the etymology section of 抛物線 as a usage note. KevinUp (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2019 (UTC)