Talk:柑仔蜜

Etymology

@Mar vin kaiser, interesting etymology. Is this sourced from 閩南方言大詞典/闽南方言大词典? Thank you. Hongthay (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, it's from me. It's just that Hokkien actually uses many words from Tagalog. I see them in 闽南方言大词典, but the original editors apparently didn't notice those words actually came from Tagalog. And I think I do have good reason to think they're from Tagalog, since traders from Min Nan region have been trading with Manila for centuries, and the similarities of the words and definitions are uncanny. Although if it's Wiktionary policy that etymologies have to have sources too, I don't know the policy on this, but it's worth putting there. I'm ok with it getting removed, if Wiktionary policy really requires sources. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 15:16, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

It's now cited. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

gambier

@Wyang, Suzukaze-c This article says that 甘子蜜 in 泉州府志 (甘子蜜，实如橘，味甘，干者合槟郎食之。) and 同安县志 (甘子蜜，实如橘，味甘，干者合槟郎食之，可治瘴气、口舌等疮。磨水擦甚效。) refers to the tomato. However, their descriptions seem to coincide with 台日大辭典's description of gambier (染料に供せらるる外檳榔に混ぜて咀嚼用に供し又收斂劑及淸凉劑の原料となす). What's the deal? Also, would this word come from a different etymon related to gambier? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:31, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, 台日新辭書 from the same period as 台日大辭典 defines this as "tomato". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:39, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

It appears this word may be a conflation of two borrowings - perhaps an intentional conflation. Claudine Salmon's “Malay (and Javanese) Loan-words in Chinese as a Mirror of Cultural Exchanges” records 'gambir 甘蜜/甘蜜貳: gambier' as a Malay borrowing in Chinese in the 18-19th century. Malay gambir does not seem to be a loanword: [1]. Wyang (talk) 04:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: It's weird that it's described as 实如橘 in 泉州府志 and 同安县志. How do the fruits of the gambier plant look like mandarin oranges? Is it confused with the tomato? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Possibly. Judging from the scan, I can't think of a better reason other than the confusion of the two things by the time they were brought to Quanzhou- the gambir was thought to be the dried extract of the plant, and tomato being the fruit (!). The sources from Taiwan seem to be more accurate in describing the plant. Wyang (talk) 04:49, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: Alright, thanks! BTW, the scan link doesn't work... — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

(The Japanese is not quite modern Japanese so I can't really help out with that [yet?], if that's why you pinged me. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:23, 5 October 2017 (UTC))

@Suzukaze-c Yes, that's why I pinged you :/ — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:27, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@TAKASUGI Shinji, please help —suzukaze (t・c) 04:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

The Chinese dictionary seems to explain it as 柑仔. The two Japanese dictionaries explain it clearly as gambier and tomato respectively. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@TAKASUGI Shinji: Which Chinese dictionary are you talking about? Also, could you translate what 台日大辭典 (gambier) actually says? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:50, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

The “甘子蜜，实如橘，味甘” part is likely to explain 柑仔. And here is a Japanese translation of 染料(せんりょう)に 供(きょう)せらるる 外(ほか) 檳榔(びんろう)に 混(ま)ぜて 咀嚼(そしゃく)用(よう)に 供(きょう)し 又(また) 收斂劑(しゅうれんざい) 及(および) 淸凉劑(せいりょうざい)の 原料(げんりょう)と なす : “other than being used for dye, it is used for chewing with areca nut and for making astringent and refreshment.” That is gambier. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

@TAKASUGI Shinji: I see. It's not really a dictionary but an annal. As we've discussed above, it's possible that they've confused "tomato" and "gambier" because they seemed to use the same word for both. "干者合槟郎食之" shows that it's referring to the gambier. Thanks for translating the passage from 台日大辭典. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:29, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

More on the etymology

In 蚵仔煎的身世：台灣食物名小考. Wyang (talk) 05:57, 17 November 2017 (UTC)