Talk:水道
Etymology[edit]
@Tooironic, Justinrleung, Suzukaze-c: Tooironic, in reply to your message... My contribution for the etymology was based on the following references:
- “Entry #1126”, in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 [Dictionary of Frequently-Used Taiwan Minnan] (overall work in Mandarin and Hokkien), Ministry of Education, R.O.C., 2023.
- 小川尚義 (OGAWA Naoyoshi), editor (1931–1932), “水道”, in 臺日大辭典 [Taiwanese-Japanese Dictionary][1], volume 2 (overall work in Hokkien and Japanese), Taihoku: Government-General of Taiwan, →OCLC, page 330
The following articles include 水道水 either or 水道:
Your request to "Please think carefully before reaching conclusions" seemed to already jump to conclusions about another person's thought process. How can you know what someone else is thinking unless they told you? Furthermore, contributions need not be final nor conclusive to be kept. There is leeway for sourced and even unsourced material until such time that it is shown to be incorrect. Based on multiple references, I thought it was likely, but not certain, that my contribution met WT:CFI and the verifiability policy. One issue I have with the way things are going here is the bias against references in Chinese entries. This seems to be contrary to the trend of Japanese entries.
Glad to discuss how to move forward from here. Hongthay (talk) 20:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Wyang. Hi Frank. Just pinging. I can't comment on the topic but I'm interested in the outcome.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Again, my point stands that we need to be careful about claiming Japanese borrowings. Even if you find a dictionary that states as such, it takes two seconds to check attestability in pre and post Qin texts using ctext.org. We are talking about a difference of a few hundred, or even thousands of years here. It is disturbing that the 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 claims it comes from Japanese. There were 水道 in the State of Chu for heaven's sake. And based on common sense, there is nothing about the term 水道 that would suggest a Japanese origin. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is a reborrowing from Japanese, especially with the sense related to water supply, currently not included as a definition. I'm sure there is no such thing as 自來水 in ancient times. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 02:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- 水道 refers to any courseway that provides water such as irrigation canals, ditches, rivers, etc. It has nothing to do with 自来水, unless there is some other sense you are referring to...? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Tooironic As I've said, the definition isn't here yet. It's the second sense in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 03:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, I get you now. I've added the sense and derived term now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Tooironic As I've said, the definition isn't here yet. It's the second sense in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 03:56, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- 水道 refers to any courseway that provides water such as irrigation canals, ditches, rivers, etc. It has nothing to do with 自来水, unless there is some other sense you are referring to...? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I think it is a reborrowing from Japanese, especially with the sense related to water supply, currently not included as a definition. I'm sure there is no such thing as 自來水 in ancient times. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 02:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- We really need a reliable source of a list of Chinese borrowings or reborrowings from Japanese, which has carefully reviewed the literature to see how there has been 1) either a paucity of attestations of the word before contemporary times, 2) or a change in meaning due to Japanese influence. There is so much false info on the Internet regarding Chinese etymology, including 字源, 詞源 ([2][3]), and reborrowings. 水道 has at least seven meanings: 1) water stream (in geography); 2) channel (in navigation); 3) waterway (in architecture); 4) canal (for transportation); 5) lane (in sports, e.g. swimming); 6) water lane (in navigation); 7) routes of water passage/distribution in the body (in TCM). 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 incorrectly identifies the 'canal' sense as from Japanese, so I'm not entirely convinced by the reliability of the Min Nan sources yet. Wyang (talk) 04:24, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Again, my point stands that we need to be careful about claiming Japanese borrowings. Even if you find a dictionary that states as such, it takes two seconds to check attestability in pre and post Qin texts using ctext.org. We are talking about a difference of a few hundred, or even thousands of years here. It is disturbing that the 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 claims it comes from Japanese. There were 水道 in the State of Chu for heaven's sake. And based on common sense, there is nothing about the term 水道 that would suggest a Japanese origin. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding references, we discussed this before at Talk:酸素 and the consensus appears to be applying references only to the interestingentries if there is not a specific sentence in the text that is referenced by the reference (i.e. an external link). The major reference works and online resources for various Chinese varieties should be added to Wiktionary:About Chinese/references (could be under a Resources section), including thcwd, 閩南方言大詞典 etc. If referencing is for a certain sentence the
{{zh-ref}}template can be used. Wyang (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Regarding references, we discussed this before at Talk:酸素 and the consensus appears to be applying references only to the interestingentries if there is not a specific sentence in the text that is referenced by the reference (i.e. an external link). The major reference works and online resources for various Chinese varieties should be added to Wiktionary:About Chinese/references (could be under a Resources section), including thcwd, 閩南方言大詞典 etc. If referencing is for a certain sentence the