Talk:總理
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Rfv-sense- I agree with 'premier' and 'prime minister' as definitions, and I agree that 總理／总理 (zǒnglǐ) could mean 'president' in theory. However, is there a specific example of 總理 being translated as 'president' officially? I would originally have thought that 總理 would NEVER be translated as president, but in Yang Jiechi's recent visit to Alaska, Yang referred to President Biden as 總理 and then took it back and said 總統. I was shocked when I saw that @Tooironic had added the word 'president' to the 總理 definition in 2016 [1]. I would say that even if it can be confirmed that 總理 has ever been translated as 'president', it should be made clear in this definition that 總理 is rarely translated as 'president'. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. If you look on Google Books, it is sometimes translated as "president". However, it is obviously not the most common rendering — that's why I put it last. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:04, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- If anyone has a moment, could you please link one example of 總理 translated as 'president'? I looked at Google Books but I couldn't see what is being talked about in the above comment. I would go so far to contend that 總理 is absolutely never translated as 'president' or that if it is in some unusual case, Wiktionary absolutely must qualify the 'president' translation as "rare". It is a mistake to put all three words on par as equally valid or equally common English translations of 總理. When I look at the definition "premier, prime minister, president" I see something equivalent in strangeness to someone listing common household pets that writes "dogs, cats, ostriches". Yes, ostriches could live in a house, but it would be unusual and it would be a mistake to list these three together in an unqualified manner. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:39, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Tooironic, Geographyinitiative: Here is one example. However, it seems to be talking about a president of a company. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 09:06, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply. Thanks for doing the work to find this evidence, which indeed seems to connect 總理 and 'president', as well as 'president' and 掌教, 山長／山长, and 會長／会长 (huìzhǎng). I knew that the link might be out there for some situations. However, in my opinion, this evidence is paltry. In my opinion, if this were the sum total of the evidence to be cited proving 總理 can also mean 'president', then Wiktionary would be justified in not including this translation among the three provided. Either that, or the 'president' part of the definition needs to be labeled 'rare'. To me, it's still similar to my analogy above: like saying that housepets include cats, dogs, and ostriches. The new evidence presented would be like me objecting that ostriches are not housepets and someone giving me a black & white picture of an ostrich in a shed. (Sorry if my wording is too extreme- I wanted to give you the full force of how I'm looking at this. I apologize if the level of evidence presented is already 100% sufficient on Wiktionary standards to include 'president'. I am trying to make the dictionary I would want to use and I would want someone who made this dictionary to be skeptical about this issue. Thanks for your time.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:58, 26 March 2021 (UTC) (modified)
- @Geographyinitiative: From this one source, the "president" sense doesn't seem to refer to a government official, so it might have to be treated as a different sense. 兩岸辭典 lists "某些政黨領導人的名稱。如中國同盟會總理。" as another sense - so it might also be president of a political party? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 16:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, if it is shown that Sun was 總理 (and that this specific title was explicitly translated President) of the Tongmenghui, then yes, that would be different. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Geographyinitiative: From this one source, the "president" sense doesn't seem to refer to a government official, so it might have to be treated as a different sense. 兩岸辭典 lists "某些政黨領導人的名稱。如中國同盟會總理。" as another sense - so it might also be president of a political party? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 16:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply. Thanks for doing the work to find this evidence, which indeed seems to connect 總理 and 'president', as well as 'president' and 掌教, 山長／山长, and 會長／会长 (huìzhǎng). I knew that the link might be out there for some situations. However, in my opinion, this evidence is paltry. In my opinion, if this were the sum total of the evidence to be cited proving 總理 can also mean 'president', then Wiktionary would be justified in not including this translation among the three provided. Either that, or the 'president' part of the definition needs to be labeled 'rare'. To me, it's still similar to my analogy above: like saying that housepets include cats, dogs, and ostriches. The new evidence presented would be like me objecting that ostriches are not housepets and someone giving me a black & white picture of an ostrich in a shed. (Sorry if my wording is too extreme- I wanted to give you the full force of how I'm looking at this. I apologize if the level of evidence presented is already 100% sufficient on Wiktionary standards to include 'president'. I am trying to make the dictionary I would want to use and I would want someone who made this dictionary to be skeptical about this issue. Thanks for your time.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:58, 26 March 2021 (UTC) (modified)
- @Tooironic, Geographyinitiative: Here is one example. However, it seems to be talking about a president of a company. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 09:06, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- If anyone has a moment, could you please link one example of 總理 translated as 'president'? I looked at Google Books but I couldn't see what is being talked about in the above comment. I would go so far to contend that 總理 is absolutely never translated as 'president' or that if it is in some unusual case, Wiktionary absolutely must qualify the 'president' translation as "rare". It is a mistake to put all three words on par as equally valid or equally common English translations of 總理. When I look at the definition "premier, prime minister, president" I see something equivalent in strangeness to someone listing common household pets that writes "dogs, cats, ostriches". Yes, ostriches could live in a house, but it would be unusual and it would be a mistake to list these three together in an unqualified manner. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:39, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Cited with a modified definition "director of a certain organization". — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 01:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
- RFV passed with the modified definition. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:58, 8 June 2022 (UTC)