Talk:-an
Greek: -ανός masculine, -ανή feminine, -ανό neuter
English Wikipedia inconsistent[edit]
- w:-an states a Persian etymology which is inconsistent with the Latin shown here. Not being a linguist, I can't tell whether this cited statement is an example of promotion, or the latest accepted "truth" - the article's history has implications of promotion.
- It includes additional "see also"s which seem pertinent even if the Persian etymology turns out wrong.
- The Wikipedia and Wiktionary entries should link to each other.
Side question, while Wikipedia requires describing significant alternative theories in fair proportion, all that seems missing in Wiktionary.
Dpleibovitz (talk) 05:03, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
A brief explanation on the formation of words such as Kansan is on point --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
Hungarian -an / -en[edit]
@Panda10 and anyone else interested: For the record, Keszler, Borbála (ed.). Magyar grammatika (’Hungarian Grammar’). Budapest: Nemzeti Tankönyvkiadó, 2000. →ISBN unambiguously claims that -an/-en is not a derivational but an inflectional suffix, so those terms that are currently classified as "adverbs" and have this suffix should be (at least theoretically) categorized as "adjective forms" instead. However, it doesn't seem to comply with the categorization existing in Wiktionary, does it? Adam78 (talk) 22:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
- (page 150)
- Néhány nyelvtanban az -an/-en és az -ul/-ül ragos mellékneveket (szépen, tisztán, fáradhatatlanul, kellemetlenül) határozószóknak tartják. Csak azokat a szavakat tekintjük határozószóvá vált mellékneveknek, melyek morfológiai szerkezete, szóelemeinek jelentése már elhomályosult: nagyon, kicsit, eléggé stb., vö. A határozószók. A mennyiséget jelentő melléknevek -szor/-szer/-ször ragját képzőszerűnek tekintjük; a fok- és a számhatározói szerepű számnevek valójában határozószó-szerűek, például ötödször, rengetegszer. Ám ezeket sem nevezzük egyelőre határozószóknak.
- (page 201)
- 4.2. Melléknévhez (számnévhez) járuló ragok
- A) -n/-an/-en (modalis – „mód-állapot határozói alak”):
- (page 202)
- A melléknévhez járuló -an/-en ragszerűen viselkedik, mivel más toldalék nem követheti.
- (page 203–204) A névszóragok táblázata
| … | |||
| 18. -ul/-ül | essivus | ház-ul | kötött határozó; szabad (állapot)határozó |
| Melléknévi rag | A ragos alak neve | ||
| 19. -n/-an/-en | (modalis) | drágá-n | kötött határozó; szabad (mód-, fok-, mérték-, állapot)határozó |
| 20. -ul/-ül | „módhatározói alak” | hangtalan-ul | szabad (mód-, fok- és állapot)határozó |
B) Képzőszerű ragok – többféleképpen megítélhető névszói toldalékok, korlátozottabb használatú, periférikus esetragként számon tartott elemek: jellel bővült alakokhoz nem járulnak, a velük ellátott névszó a mondatban elsősorban szabad határozó, vonzatkeretben ritkábban fordulnak elő.
| … | |||
| 1. -képp/-képpen (esetszerű főnévi használatban) |
… | ||
| 2. -kor (esetszerű, de korlátozott használatú) |
… | ||
| 3. -nként | … | ||
| 4. -stul/-stül | … | ||
| 5. -anta/-ente | … | ||
| Melléknévi (számnévi) | |||
| 6. -lag/-leg | … | ||
| 7. -szor/-szer/-ször | … | ||
- @Adam78
- Before you make the changes to conform to the new interpretation of grammar, would you modify an entry to show the implementation? Here are a few points:
- New form entry:
- Etymology: Instead of adverb-forming suffix what would be the gloss for the suffix?
- Pronunciation: This will stay the same I assume.
- Headline: Will it be changed from
{{hu-adv}}to{{head|hu|adverb form}}? - What will happen to the currently displayed comparative and superlative forms? They were generated with
{{hu-adv}}. - Definition line: Currently it's an English translation. Will you use the
{{inflection of}}template and what will be the case name? Will you still provide the English translation after the template? - When the definition contains more than one line (e.g. egyhangúan) how will the entry look like?
- Categories: From lemma, it will move to non-lemma. It will be removed from the adverbs category and from the Hungarian adverbs suffixed with -xx category.
- Terms spelled with ly contain a See also section with a linked appendix (see folyamatosan). That section should be deleted since we don't link non-lemma entries.
- Synonyms: Will you still include synonyms? See folytonosan.
- Related terms: Will you include this section? See gyakran.
- Lemma entry of the form (e.g. hangos in case of hangosan):
- Where will you put the inflected entry? In the current case table? The -ul/-ül suffix is already included but not -n/-an/-en. Or will it stay in the Derived terms section?
- Comparative and superlative form entries:
- How will they change under the new system? E.g.: hatékonyabban, leghatékonyabban. Or are these forms rather inflections of hatékonyabb and leghatékonyabb?
- Panda10 (talk) 15:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@Panda10 Actually, I think it's not "the new interpretation of grammar" (as you put it) but the old one, since A. Jászó, Anna, editor. A magyar nyelv könyve (’A Book of the Hungarian Language’). Eighth edition. Budapest: Trezor Kiadó, 2007. (First edition: 1991.) →ISBN gives the same classification (p. 289) and I think A. Jászó represents the traditional view. What I might call a more recent interpretation could be Strukturális magyar nyelvtan – Morfológia (available for viewing for half an hour with a free login), whose authors classify this suffix as a derivational suffix (see the subchapters 3.3., 3.8., and 4.4.1.). They write "A hagyományos tárgyalással szemben a képzők közé soroltuk az -An és az -Ul toldalékot mint határozószó-képzőt." (3.8.)
If we were to make such a change (just hypothetically): The name of the suffix in Etymology and in the definition line could be something like relational suffix (viszonyrag, as opposed to esetrag, case suffix), or more specifically modal suffix (cf. modalis above). This suffix could be added to the case table, which will thus include a non-case suffix. Actually -lag/-leg might be considered for adding, as well. The headline would be {{head|hu|adjective form}}. The comparative and superlative of adverbs are morphologically formed from the comparative and superlative adjectives (the -abb in gyorsabban is not an infix that gets inserted into gyors-an, so I suppose the comparative-superlative adjectival derivation is the only way). The inflection-of template could be updated. The meaning can be added, yes, as it's definitely helpful and not always obvious. More than one line in the definition: senses can be subordinated in such cases (starting the line with "##"). Synonyms and related terms can be retained. It wouldn't need to be included among Derived terms since it would be in the case table (or rather, in the table of suffixed forms; these lines would be enabled only for adjectives and numerals, with a specific parameter). Hatékonyabban would be an inflection of hatékonyabb.
Anyway, it doesn't seem to be an easy job and might not be absolutely necessary, with respect to Strukturális magyar nyelvtan – Morfológia, even if we're currently contradicting both A magyar nyelv könyve and Magyar grammatika. We can sleep on it and discuss it in more detail before implementing anything. Thank you for your insightful and pragmatic questions. Adam78 (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2020 (UTC)