Talk:Baart

RFV discussion: September 2016–April 2017

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Baart

The entry shows a change of consonant from /d/ to /t/, which is unheard of outside a half a dozen southern villages, where it is restricted an initial cluster /dw- → tw-/. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 19:00, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Unchallenged for a week. Added speedy deletion tag. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 07:50, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Unstriking. Please leave this for a full month, as explained at the top of this page. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 14:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Auslautverhärtung?

3 cites added. Hamburg lies in the North West, Westphalen (Westfalen, Westphalia) in the West of Germany and in the South of the Low German regions, and Sven Moritzen lives in the North (nds.wp).

-84.161.48.20 17:13, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

The citations only show the spelling Baart, which could be a rendering of /baːrd/. I'm contesting the existence of a word /baːrt/, which would require an inflected form (Baarte, Baartes, Baarten) for citation. (Source of our entry seems to be a lemming from http://www.platt-wb.de/hoch-platt/?term=Bart) Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 18:55, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, the spelling of the singular exists and is cited.

As for the plural:

• 2011, Johann Beerens, Einundzwanzig Geschichten up hoch un platt, page 196:

  Wat was dat'n moije Bild. Nu wassen dat wall acht of tein lüttje Wiehnachtsmannen waarn: Skebellskuppen ut de olle Kist', Baarten van Watte of witte Hüüsel, Poolen un Kaapen ut roode Tüch.

That should more or less mean: "What was that a nice[?] picture. Now [?] that ca. 8 or 10 little Santa Clauses [?] : [?] ut of the old box, beards made out of cotton wool or white [?], caps and caps out of red cloth[?]". Google results like Amazon say it's East Frisian, but that's Low German too. So in East Frisian the plural "Baarten" should exist just as the dictionary stated.

-84.161.48.20 20:46, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

"What a nice picture was that. Now they had become about eight or ten little father christmasses: Hand-made masks from the old box, beards made of cotton wool or white threads, soft hats and caps made from red material." - While I'm unwilling to accept anything with the High German Consonant Shift as Low German, I admit that this is a Low German text and that word is used for beards. I'll leave it to others to judge whether this does it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 00:01, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

@Korn: As nobody else commented on this, I'd like to make some suggestions.

The plural Baarten was found, so it is attested and should be RFV passed.

The plural Baarten was found in 21st century literature from East Frisia. So one could add a time and/or a dialect, as it's ATM only attested for East Frisia.

If alternative forms with d similar to English beards can be attested, one can add them as alternative forms, or state that the t form is an regional alternative form of the d form or forms.

In the etymology one could add that the Middle Low German form had a d in it (which because of Auslautverhärtung is spelled t in the singular). Instead of just "From Middle Low German bârt" it could for example be "From Middle Low German bârt (plural ..d..)" (with replacement of the dots). Then people can see that there was a change from d to t.

Maybe one can add how or why the d changed to t. If there's no proof, one could add some word like "maybe" or "possibly".

• Because of influence from Frisian languages?
• Because of sound changes or because of misinterpreting MLG bârt as a word with t in it?

For comparision: Middle High German hinden became New High German hinden, hinten, modern New High German hinten, and MHG wërt, genitive werdes, became NHG Wert, gen. Wert[e]s, while e.g. NHG Feld from MHG vëlt, gen. vëldes, preserves d. Maybe in case of wërt/Wert it was because of misinterpreting MHG wërt as a word with t in it. It could be similar with MLG bârt and East Frisian Baart, plural Baarten.

• Because of High German influence from Bart, pl. Bärte?

-84.161.63.156 12:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

RFv-passed. The lemma can be moved if another spelling is more common, of course. - -sche (discuss) 19:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)