Talk:Benedictus
Latest comment: 1 year ago by Andrew Sheedy in topic RFV discussion: January 2023
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RFV-sense "The music that accompanies either of the above". It's common for settings of the two Benedictuses (i.e. both the words and the music) to be called a "Benedictus", but I would be surprised if the music itself was specifically called a "Benedictus" in a meaningfully distinct way. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 20:27, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
- It's trivially easy to find cites on Google Books talking about choirs singing the Benedictus, organists playing the Benedictus and refering to vocal or organ scores of the Benedictus, as well as YouTube videos of, for example, the Benedictus in Haydn's Little Organ Mass (aka 'Missa Brevis' or 'Kleine Orgelmesse'). As it happens, I've sung the bass part of a four part variation on Haydn's original (which is a Soprano solo) many times. I'm not sure I follow your logic here. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 00:13, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Most of those can be seen as ambiguous but if we're being rigorous something like "composed a Benedictus" (which is attested) has to refer to the music and not the prayer itself. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Composer don't compose prayers, the words of the Benedictus are basically completely fixed (a few minor variations in words are possible but all of these variants have multiple pieces of music set to them). See Sanctus and you'll notice that apart from a few trivial differences like 'Lord' versus 'lorde' (which I've never personally come across) all such variants are identical. People nearly always say they're "singing the Benedictus" not "singing a setting of the Benedictus" and musical scores rarely refer to "(Insert composer's name here)'s setting of the Benedictus" but instead refer to "(Insert composer's name here)'s Benedictus". Both of these facts clearly prove that "Benedictus" doesn't simply mean 'a hymn with specific words' or 'the words of a specific hymn' but it can also mean 'the music sung and/or played that is composed to accompany a hymn with specific words' and even 'a specific rendition of such music'. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 00:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- That's my point, yeah. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- I see your points now and I think I read the definition a little too literally due to the strange wording. It is not the music that accompanies the Benedictus that is a Benedictus, it is a musical setting of the Benedictus itself (including the words) that is a Benedictus. Note, however, that this doesn't settle whether we should have a separate definition. "His O magnum mysterium" is easily citable as well, as is any liturgical text that is commonly set to music. I notice we're inconsistent in how we treat similar settings of liturgical texts: credo, Agnus Dei, introit, offertory, Miserere mention the possibility of the text being set to music within the definition for the text itself; Magnificat, Gloria, and Te Deum simply speak of sung hymns; alleluia only mentions the individual word and musical compositions; Sanctus and De Profundis mention the text only and not musical settings; and kyrie and requiem take a similar approach to Benedictus, defining the musical setting separately. Note also the inconsistent capitalization. Perhaps I should take this to the Tea Room. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- That's my point, yeah. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Composer don't compose prayers, the words of the Benedictus are basically completely fixed (a few minor variations in words are possible but all of these variants have multiple pieces of music set to them). See Sanctus and you'll notice that apart from a few trivial differences like 'Lord' versus 'lorde' (which I've never personally come across) all such variants are identical. People nearly always say they're "singing the Benedictus" not "singing a setting of the Benedictus" and musical scores rarely refer to "(Insert composer's name here)'s setting of the Benedictus" but instead refer to "(Insert composer's name here)'s Benedictus". Both of these facts clearly prove that "Benedictus" doesn't simply mean 'a hymn with specific words' or 'the words of a specific hymn' but it can also mean 'the music sung and/or played that is composed to accompany a hymn with specific words' and even 'a specific rendition of such music'. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 00:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- Most of those can be seen as ambiguous but if we're being rigorous something like "composed a Benedictus" (which is attested) has to refer to the music and not the prayer itself. —Al-Muqanna المقنع (talk) 00:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
- RFV withdrawn. Discussion moved to Tea Room. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)