Talk:Faut

Low German - Terminology?

Which terms are or should be used for which Southern Westphalian region?
Regarding Southern Westphalian the following terms do occor:

• Südwestfälisch / südwestfälisch
  [broader term based on www.lwl.org/komuna/pdf/mundartregionen_westfalens.pdf , including the regions Recklinghausen, Gelsenkirchen/Bochum/Dortmund, Hagen, märkischer Kreis, Hochsauerlandkreis, Soest]
• Westfälisch-Märkisch / westfälisch-märkisch
  [in W. Schulze's essay about its vocalism, it includes Dortmund, but excludes regions south the Ruhr (e.g. Iserlohn), north the Lippe, east from Unna. Maybe it's also used in a broader sense including the märkische Kreis or parts thereof, or in another sense refering to the märkische Kreis only. In [1] it refers to Woeste's dictionary which author was from Iserlohn.]
• Grafschaft-Märkisch / grafschaft-märkisch [cp. Grafschaft Mark]
  [rare term, but occurs [for example or only?] in www.lwl.org/westfaelische-geschichte/txt/wz-9532.pdf in a letter from 1819: "[...] lautet das hier im Grafschaft-Märkischen, und auch wol im Herzogthum Westfalen, [...]" -- historically-geographically it could include Soest and Iserlohn, but it might be restricted to the central parts of the Grafschaft Mark and additionally include Dortmund and be similar to W. Schule's term]
• Märkisch / märkisch
  [Maybe rare. In the intro to Woeste's dictionary it reads "Den Grundstock [..] bildet der Wortschatz des märkischen Dialekts". However, in other contexts the term might refer to the Mark Brandenburg instead of the Grafschaft Mark, and hence westfälisch-märkisch and grafschaft-märkisch could be more precise terms in contrast to Märkisch-Brandenburgisch/märkisch-brandenburgisch which includes Altmärkisch/altmärkisch.]
• Märkisch-Sauerländisch / märkisch-sauerländisch
  [cp. märkischer Kreis of the Sauerland, could overlap with Grafschaft-Märkisch/grafschaft-märkisch and maybe Westfälisch-Märkisch/westfälisch-märkisch as well as with Sauerländisch/sauerländisch]
• Sauerländisch / sauerländisch --- Süderländisch / süderländisch [Süderland = Sauerland]
  [might be ambigious and refer to the whole Sauerland or maybe just to central parts, especially the Hochsauerlandkreis, cp. File:Sauerland2-Manoftours.png. At www.plattdeutsch-niederdeutsch.net/bibliographie/index.htm it should exclude the märkische Kreis including Iserlohn and Soest.]
• Soestisch / soestisch
  [might be rare]

Some langual differences:

• "Diphthongierung der hohen Langvokale" cp. www.lwl.org/komuna/pdf/mundartregionen_westfalens.pdf
• Personal pronoun in the plural: A pronoun map at regionalsprache.de gives ink (Bochum, Dortmund, Iserlohn, Altena), au (Dat.) & auk (Acc.) (Attendorn, Olpe, Schmallenberg), uch (Sauerland, Soest), ugge (around Soest but excluding Soest)

Some sources:

• Britzeln un Beschüte. Erzählungen und Gedichte nebst einer Sammlung der gebräulichsten Sprichwörter in sauerländischer (märkischer) Mundart von Th. Schröder [= Theodor Schröder]. The author is from the närkische Kreis around Plettenberg or from Hagen. By the title, the language is from the märkische Kreis. Is it westfälisch-märkisch (might be langually seen more fitting) or märkisch-sauerländisch (might be geographically more fitting and fits better to the title) or sauerländisch (more precisely western Sauerländisch with Sauerländisch in a broader sense) or *westsauerländisch?
• Works by Friedrich Wilhelm Grimme. By the origin of the author, it's assumable to be from the Hochsauerlandkreis. Is it sauerländisch, and may it be in a strict sense, or is there a more precise or less ambigious term like *hochsauerländisch, *hochsauerlandkreisisch (sounds stupid and might be anachronistic), *zentralsauerländisch?

-84.161.49.148 02:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

The group is Südwestfälisch and Märkisch, Soestisch and Sauerländisch are some regional dialects within it. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 10:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, with Märkisch in the sense as part of Westphalian. In general, Märkisch is an ambigious term, and is part of (Southern) Westphalian or part of eastern Low German.

But what's part of Märkisch (in the Westphalian sense) or Westfälisch-Märkisch and what of Sauerländisch? Is Soestisch part of Sauerländisch as Soest is part of Sauerland (now)? Does the dialect of the märkische Kreis belong to Sauerländisch as the Kreis is part of Sauerland (now), or to Westfälisch-Märkisch, or is it split and does in parts belong to both? What's the dialect in Schröder's work?

As for "Märkisch-Sauerländisch": It might be ambigious too. At least sometimes it's restricted to the märkische Sauerland. Sometimes it also includes regions of the Grafschaft Mark in the direction to Dortmund and might even be "Westfälisch-Märkisch and Sauerländisch".

-84.161.49.148 14:46, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I recall Soestisch, which I think to cover the majority Kreis Soest, being distinguishable from the rest of southern Westphalian with little effort and thus think it should keep its own term, but only where required. I personally tend to associate Märkisch with Brandenburg, which is the far bigger Mark originally and whose political boundaries are exactly the boundaries of the respective dialect. On the other hand I don't recall the borders of the Westphalian Mark or the Sauerland to actually be reflected in any way in the isoglosses. I'd probably just list them as Southern Westphalian. Southern Westphalia, all in all, is a surprisingly uniform region. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Low German - Form

Instead of several noun sections by dialect, there could be a single noun section like this:

Faut m (plural Fäut or Fäute or Faite)

[ {{nds-de-noun|g=m|pl=Fäut|pl2=Fäute|pl3=Faite}} doesn't work.
Maybe some would add the diminutives Fäutken, Faitken inside the header. ]

1. (Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommersch, Paderbornisch, Sauerländisch, Westfälisch-Märkisch/Märkisch-Sauerländisch, Ostfälisch) foot (anatomy)

But:

• Then derived terms should have to be merged regardless of dialect, such that also forms with sk and sch could appear next to each other.
• There needs to be a usage note or a inflection sections with much more information to put together the dialects and the inflection (Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommersch Faut, pl. Faut, dat. Fäuten; Paderbornisch Faut, dat. Faute, pl. Fäute, dat. Fäuten; ...).
• The lb gets quite long, but only "in some dialects" isn't specific enough. (Well, the info could also be presented in a usage note or the inflection section, but than possibly cats maybe would have to be added manually.)
• In case of other terms with varying gender (e.g. Lohn - m. or n.?, and maybe for some dialects unattested) a merging would be more complicated.

-84.161.49.148 08:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

As for the genders: A fluctuation in gender between neuter and masculine is not rare throughout Low German history, I'd just put both of them in one header with g=/g2= Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2018 (UTC)