Talk:abnormal

Tagalog entry

@Mar vin kaiser Just to note, the Tagalog entry isn't a pseudo-Hispanism, but the now-increasingly-nonstandard pronunciation is (so is abnormalidad, where the Spanish for “abnormality” is anormalidad; KWF lists that to replace the former). It's much like the case of level/lebel, where it's sometimes being pronounced as if it's from Spanish, as leh-BELL. KWF Diksiyonaryo lists the standard pronunciation as being faithful to the original English; that is also the increasingly common pronunciation (same can also be said of level/lebel as mentioned).-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:17, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: It being a pseudo-Hispanism is based on the pronunciation of ultimate stress, which is found in other dictionaries. Only KWF Diksiyonaryo lists it as with a penultimate stress, indicating that it's a new prescription, because if it existed beforehand, it would be found in older dictionaries, but all of these show an ultimate stress. Therefore, if we take the original form of the Tagalog word, abnormál, simply due to the ultimate stress, it's an English word made to sound like Spanish, that's the definition of a pseudo-Hispanism. Therefore, it's a pseudo-Hispanism that the KWF is trying to de-Hispanize. KWF is trying to say something like, "No, abnormál is wrong, say it like abnórmal", even if it was abnormál that existed first in Tagalog. In this case, it's still a pseudo-Hispanism. However though, I would advise us to be careful with all entries marked as "Ing" in Diksiyonaryo, since it's not dependable, as you know Diksiyonaryo lists so many unnecessary English words, and I feel like we may be just imagining the idea that KWF is prescribing abnórmal. By the way, I would also consider lebél as a pseudo-Hispanism. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: How can we conclude though that "abnórmal" is the standard pronunciation? When the English parts of Diksiyonaryo is not dependable? I still say we should still depend on the older dictionaries. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: For me, I'd disagree with the idea that abnórmal is becoming more common. The word abnormál to me is still widespread in Tagalog, and to me it seems like I only hear abnórmal ever in people who do a lot of code-switching. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Oh, I just thought of something. If "abnormalidad" is an existing pseudo-Hispanism, it just makes sense that "abnormal" also entered Tagalog together with "abnormalidad" as a pseudo-Hispanism. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser From what you mean, I can say “abnormal" and "lebel" may have their first attested pronunciations being Spanish-influenced due to the generations of that time still exposed to Spanish in the education system and the media, but this doesn't affect their derivation from English. The words may be nowadays pronounced as similar in English (with penultimate stress), but they're still legit Tagalog pronunciations secondary to the fact “abnormal” and “lebel” are already naturalized into the language, and those pronunciation reflects current state of affairs, not just the prescription by a language regulator.

. In regard to KWF Diksiyonaryo, it's not just a dictionary of Tagalog, but also of the many languages of the Philippines. I agree we should be careful relying on Diksiyonaryo, as my later realization is the brackets used there doesn't necessarily indicate etymology. That said, we should treat some other known English borrowings there (both assimilated and unassimilated) that is commonly used in Tagalog speech and writing as Tagalog. I do feel we somewhat have a purist attitude toward words listed under Tagalog, but we have a reason for it due to the prevalence of code-switching; the line being legit borrowing or code-switching being hard to draw. Referring to older Tagalog/Filipino dictionaries are the way to go, but we shouldn't overlook the present situation of Tagalog now like in the treatment English loanword, considering Wiktionary is descriptive, not unlike KWF's. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:36, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Right now, I'm looking at Youtube videos of usage of the word "abnormal", two videos I found from GMA news say "abnormál". Trying to look for more. I still think that abnormál the most common pronunciation, and no one says abnórmal unless they're trying to inject an English word into their speech. I would agree with you if abnórmal were the "present situation of Tagalog", as in I hear it used casually in speech, that's why I'm looking for videos. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:41, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Yeah, Wiktionary is descriptive, but KWF btw is very prescriptive. I think we agree the word "abnormal" entered Tagalog as a pseudo-Hispanism as abnormál. I think that's still the status-quo today, and abnórmal is just seldom used in code-switching. Based on your response, you think that abnórmal is now more common, replacing abnormál, so I'm trying to see proof of that in Youtube videos. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 02:44, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I can update the usage notes relating to pronunciation, but we should still list both pronunciations, with notes recording usage. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:54, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I just noticed you restored the previous version of the entry. You might have missed my reply in regard to Diksiyonaryo (tl;dr?). I'll be undoing it, but with the updated usage notes from what you discovered. Still again, “abnormal” is a legit borrowing from English; it's the first recorded (and still common pronunciation) which is pseudo-Hispanic (so is “abnormalidad”) TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: It makes me think though, can we in fact consider "abnórmal" as a valid pronunciation? I think it has to be in somewhat common use though before we put it in. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser It's not an issue. "Ab-nor-MAL” (stressed syllable in caps) may be more common from your research on spoken attestations, but "ab-NOR-mal" is still valid, yet a recent one from younger speakers more exposed to and proficient in English. Pronunciation of some English loanwords like this and “lebel/level” may be affected by either sense of formality (formal Tagalog tend to be filled with Spanish loanwords), age or the speaker's English proficiency. This also appears to be an influence in the myth that many Spanish loanwords, especially the ones ending with -siyon/syon (except the likes of aborsiyon/aborsyon), are being falsely claimed to be from English. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:22, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Anyway, yeah, to update you, all the videos I've watched in Youtube pronounce it as "abnormál". The thing though is that in both formal videos and informal videos, they both use "abnormál", even younger speakers. I think we should treat "abnórmal" as any other English word, even though it's just a pronunciation, and to assess whether it's in active use, because so far, I haven't heard it used in any videos. But I'm still searching, selecting videos of younger people. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:33, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Ok, I found one potential video saying abnórmal, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lhVPDReWQc. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: I disagree that "abnórmal" is standard. What makes it standard? Just because KWF put it in their dictionary? But then again, it doesn't say that it's meant to be for Tagalog/Filipino. It could be just KWF listing an English word in the Philippines. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:47, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: In regard to etymology, agreed. I already restored the etymology being a borrowing from English, and added notes regarding the pronunciations. Other cases similar to these are various English borrowings ending with —al (e.g. kemikal, medikal, pinansiyal, etc.; they're pronounced with secondary stress, but it's not readily apparent in speech, and I commonly hear them pronounced as if they're from Spanish). Perhaps polusyon as well, and even konduktor (more likely English borrowings; pronunciation altered to invoke Spanish derivation?) -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: For me, the more similar word is aktres, pronounced with a final syllable stressed. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:08, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: In regard to the English-based pronunciation in question, we can keep it considering its attested. Yes, The KWF could be just listing an English word or definition (considering Diksiyonaryo is a national dictionary for all the languages spoken in the Philippines), but as their Diksiyonaryo is also a prescriptive guide to Tagalog or Filipino pronunciation and usage, their pronunciation ab-nór-mal can still be legit but noted as a prescription. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:22, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Yep, I get that, but it's unclear from the dictionary whether it's prescribing a pronunciation in Tagalog/Filipino, or listing an English word and its pronunciation in English. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: My thoughts here, if the pseudo-Hispanic pronunciation is going to go out of fashion as Filipinos are being aware this should be pronounced as like in English, disregarding Tagalog-English code-switching, I think we should mark the pronunciation ab-NOR-mal as the primary one. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: That's a big IF, since abnormál is still the most common pronunciation, and I can hardly find videos of abnórmal online, and I don't hear it often except in codeswitching sentences. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:06, 3 December 2021 (UTC)