Talk:ciutură

Descendants

In the entry for the word "ciutură" in the "Dicționarul Etimologic român"(1958-1966, Alexandru Ciorănescu), the romanian word is given as the source for the albanian, neo-greek, bulgarian, serbo-croatian, hungarian, ruthenian and turkish terms. From what I could find, the etymology of the czech "čutora" is given as romanian. For the bulgarian "čutura", I found it given simply as vlach. It was listed alongside other vlach borrowings, but the terms offered were dacoromanian, rather than aromanian or megleno-romanian. The only concrete etymology for an aromanian borrowing I could find was for the macedonian descendant. Șcheauca (talk) 21:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

@Șcheauca: As expected. The possibility of an Aromanian borrowing is rarely considered and in older sources, which later scholars also simply quote (dictionary entries are not equally meticulously researched, often completion has to take precedence), the language is hardly known, and even if it is known by name it may not be known in detail or recognized how different a language it is from Dacoromanian, while a better known language can also stand for a less known language. And thus note that “Romanian” can mean “either Daco-Romanian or Aromanian or Meglenoromanian”; such is the distinction in Dahmen, Wolfgang, Kramer, Johannes (2006) “Die rumänischen Erbwörter altgriechischer Herkunft (Vorarbeiten zum Etymologicum Graeco-Slavo-Valachicum)”, in Wolfgang Dahmen, Günter Holtus, Johannes Kramer, Michael Metzeltin, Wolfgang Schweickard, Otto Winkelmann, editors, Lexikalischer Sprachkontakt in Südosteuropa. Romanistisches Kolloquium XII (Tübinger Beiträge zur Linguistik; 447) (in German), Tübingen: Gunter Narr Verlag, →ISBN, page 204 where this borrowing is treated, “aus dem Rumänischen”; while on the other hand it is still usual to see Aromanian as a dialect or “variety” Romanian (1 2 3). As in Nöldeke 1910 warned that many suggested Geʿez borrowings in Arabic may turn out or actually be – without anyone ever being able to confirm — Old South Arabian borrowings. Or a frequent experience on Wiktionary: “Italian” in etymologies is often Venetian or Sicilian.

Also I point at the form ciutrã in Aromanian mirrored in as well disyllabic borrowings and at the particular meanings: I look into Daco-Romanian dictionaries and don’t see the particular sense of a canteen or herder’s water-flask, such as depicted for the Gagauz in a Russian website I left in a wikitext comment in 2019. Not just a jug, or are the Daco-Romanian dictionaries also inaccurate about the type of bottle for which the word is used? Fay Freak (talk) 22:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)