Talk:clogás

Provenance

This is more likely of late MidIr or E.ModIr origin at the earliest, given that cás is supposed to be derived from English in this sense. But there is a big gap between stools, as between sga and ga is the entirety of Middle and Early Modern Irish. Catsidhe (talk) 01:23, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you know approximately what century it's first attested? Middle Irish is considered a separate language here (code mga), and Early Modern Irish is considered Irish (code ga) with tags such as {{obsolete}} if necessary. —Angr 16:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

From eDIL, the sources look like they start from the 15C: The Gaelic Mandeville c1480, Annals of Loch Cé for annal 1564, Flight of the Earls c1609, Annals of the Four Masters for annal 1584.7. So yes, Modern Irish, even if the Four masters have archaicised the spelling a little, as was their habit. Do my edits look about right? Catsidhe (talk) 06:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but I notice that the spelling clocás doesn't seem to be attested in any of the quotes from DIL, and the modern spelling is clogás (in Ó Dónaill; Dinneen spells it clogchás), so I'm going to move it to clogás; the other attested spellings can be listed as Alternative forms. —Angr 18:06, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

But clocás is the header form in DIL. I'll add a pointer to the Reference, but would it not seem at least odd that the header form in a dictionary we're referring to isn't mentioned in the body of our definition? (I have found an attestation with one medial 'c', as it happens: the CELT edition of the Flight of the Earls (G100070.sgml) p.66 features "gusin gclocáss".) (This seems a lot of effort for such a relatively rare word... although I suppose if it were common, the effort would not be necessary.)

Is it also worth adding Dinneen and Ó Dónaill to the References list? Even though there's no canonical online version of either that I know of. I do have my own copy of Dinneen here, though. Catsidhe (talk) 20:19, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

DIL generally uses standardized Old Irish spelling for its lemmas, even for words not attested until Early Modern Irish. That's their policy, but it isn't ours. Certainly a word we're labeling "Irish" (implying Modern Irish) should have its main lemma under its modern, reformed spelling; older spellings can be listed as Alternative forms. Template:R:Dinneen can be used to list Dinneen as a reference, but don't worry too much about whether they're available online. (Dinneen used to be available at [1], but I can't get that link to work anymore.) References aren't as important at Wiktionary as they are at Wikipedia; here, it's much more important to give citations showing the word being used in real-life texts than it is to show that it's been listed in other people's dictionaries in the past. Helps us avoid ghost words. —Angr 22:14, 15 December 2012 (UTC)