Talk:dreidel
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Metaknowledge in topic Yiddish term in the image caption
Yiddish term in the image caption[edit]
Hi, @Mahagaja, how's your Yiddish? Wonder if you can supply the Hebrew letters for the term shtel arayn ("put in") in the image caption. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:19, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: Done, but are we sure that the Yiddish words are the real etymology and the Hebrew phrase is the folk etymology? I always thought it was the other way round. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: thanks! I’m going off what’s stated in the English Wikipedia article. The OED says the letters are “commonly believed” to refer to the phrase, which doesn’t seem like a confirmation that they actually derive from the phrase. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: OK, thanks. What feels most likely to me is that they're from both: probably the Hebrew phrase is the original source, then the Yiddish words were used as a mnemonic when playing the game. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: feel free to update the etymology if you find more evidence. — SGconlaw (talk) 13:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: OK, but even now, the Wikipedia article never calls the Hebrew phrase a folk etymology. I think that's overstating the case. It simply says the letters stand for the Yiddish words as well as for the Hebrew phrase. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- The English Wikipedia article says: "A popular conjecture had it that the letters abbreviated the words "nes gadol haya sham" (a great miracle happened there), an idea that became attached to dreidels when the game entered into Hanukkah festivities." [Emphasis added.] — SGconlaw (talk) 13:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: OK, but even now, the Wikipedia article never calls the Hebrew phrase a folk etymology. I think that's overstating the case. It simply says the letters stand for the Yiddish words as well as for the Hebrew phrase. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:11, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: feel free to update the etymology if you find more evidence. — SGconlaw (talk) 13:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: OK, thanks. What feels most likely to me is that they're from both: probably the Hebrew phrase is the original source, then the Yiddish words were used as a mnemonic when playing the game. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja: thanks! I’m going off what’s stated in the English Wikipedia article. The OED says the letters are “commonly believed” to refer to the phrase, which doesn’t seem like a confirmation that they actually derive from the phrase. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: I think an image caption should briefly describe the image as presented, and nothing more. This lengthy, multilingual caption seems inappropriate to me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: *sigh*. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine in the image caption, but for the sake of argument do you think there a suitable place for such information? It appears in the OED under the definition, but I don't think we tend to do that. It's also not a usage note. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Sgconlaw: I think there definitely is an appropriate place for the information: Wikipedia. The important point to remember is that we are a dictionary, and this has nothing to do with the word dreidel, but instead with dreidels themselves. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:28, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: *sigh*. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine in the image caption, but for the sake of argument do you think there a suitable place for such information? It appears in the OED under the definition, but I don't think we tend to do that. It's also not a usage note. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)