Talk:drkati

*drъgati, *dьrkati

@Bezimenen Proto-Slavic *dьrkati leads me hither. *drъgati too, and the page derives from *drъgati. *dьrkati only mentions the Slovene, not Serbo-Croatian. Though both Proto-Slavic words are related you should check what is what. Also, the accent over *dь̋rkati does not adhere to WT:ASLA, no double acute there; that’s because Snoj’s notation is different from ours, to know. Can you incorporate Snoj in the Comparison of prosodic notation on WT:ASLA? The accent marks in Slovene books still confuse me. Fay Freak (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• I just corrected the accent mark on *dьrkati (I mechanically copied it from Snoj). Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what notation Snoj follows. I believe it's the academic historical one, but he may also follow notation adjusted to the modern Slovene accentology. I don't have access to the physical form of his dictionary, so I'm clueless as to which of the two cases is in place. Rua may possibly know?

• As far as *dьrkati and *drъgati go, these forms are not related morphologically, despite their similar meanings. *dьrkati is from Proto-Indo-European *der- (“to tear”) + *-kati, while *drъgati reflects Proto-Indo-European *dʰrewg- (“to shake off, to drain”), from Proto-Indo-European *dʰer- (“to endure, to hold”). The later is probably related with Proto-Germanic *drūgiz (“hard, stiff”), Proto-Germanic *druknaz (“dry”). I don't know who had put Slovene and Serbo-Croation drkati under *drъgati, though. The correct descendant of *drъgati is drgati, which also reflects *dьrgati. In that regard, if there is any overlapping, then it should be between *dьrgati and *drъgati. Bezimenen (talk) 18:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• I just expanded the etymology of *drъgati and added references. Hopefully, this helps clarifying some of the confusion. Bezimenen (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• @Bezimenen You have put *dьrgati as a related term under *dьrkati though. Probably meaning semantically related terms, or as German Wiktionary has it: Sinnverwandte Wörter. We should find an equivalent term sooner or later because people continue to put unrelated terms under “Related terms” or remove synonyms which are not wholly synonymous.
• Doesn’t really matter who added it. Ten years ago editors didn’t have that many sources, and they often copied from HJP, which is very often very wrong. It’s one example why I value if our editors know etymologies better than the sources; while I can’t blame the HJP people for their glosses I had to remove many ridiculous derivations from them like at blȁnja (“carpenter’s plane”) which they relate to *bòlna (“membrane”) when it is just Latin plāna, or for plȕto (“cork”) which they relate to an obscure Russian плути́во (plutívo) (the heck?) and Bulgarian плу̀та (plùta) and reconstruct *plutъ when in reality it is an artificially pushed form of plȕta and it has been formed in Serbo-Croatian from plȕti (“to swim”) and borrowed into the rest of South Slavic, no mysterious Proto-Slavic. And surprise, HJP relates dȑkati to *drъgati. Fay Freak (talk) 19:30, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Bezimenen As far as I've been able to tell, Snoj follows the traditional notation, but with a few caveats. The main one is that the forms are pre-Ivšić's law, so with final yers still accented etc. Secondly, short accented vowels, both initial and non-initial, are indicated with a double grave. —Rua (mew) 19:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• *dьrgati and *dьrkati are related in the sense that both are velar extensions of Proto-Indo-European *der- (“to tear”) (e.g. per ESSJa). They are not doublets, though. The only provable doublet of *dьrkati is *dьrcati. There are other examples of -k- and -c- alternating, however, I can't think of (native) doublets with -k- and -g- alternating. Bezimenen (talk) 09:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)