Talk:formagium

New Latin?

"All of the quotations I added are New Latin." - User:J3133

I'm not sure that's the case, actually. All of the dates that you have given belong to relatively modern sources discussing quotes that date from centuries earlier.

For example the following extract:

" It. Vt singulj colonj iuxta numerum dicationis dent mediam pintham Budensem butirj, et vnum caseum vel formagium et vnum quartale mellis."

Is indeed mentioned in a book from 1855, but it is quoting a decree made in the year 1543 regarding the gathering of provisions for the Ottoman Emperor, who had recently conquered parts of Hungary. The Latin annotation reads: "De victualibus Imperatori Turcarum et de modo Ordinationibusque eorundum (ad ann. 1543)." The Nicodene (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@The Nicodene: New Latin: “revival of Latin used in original, scholarly, and scientific works since about 1500.” 1543 is later than 1500. J3133 (talk) 20:18, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@J3133 Ah, well, I suppose so. Still it's a bit misleading, as it be taken to be a claim that formagium is still current in Modern Latin. None of the quotes, as far as I can tell, post-date the 16th century. If I find the time I will translate them and fix the dates. The Nicodene (talk) 20:25, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Formagium gratulis ſemper tridando foratis. / Altera ſollicitas digitis componere gnoccos, / Qui per formagium tridatum forte rotantes, / Deventant groſſi veluti groſſiſſima Botta. […] Amoroſi formagium in ſummo habent honore, unde proverbium: / Dicunt tantam efficaciam habere Amorem, quia Caſeus dedit ipſi ſuum ſaporem."

The first part of this, everything up until the word Amoroſi, is a Latin-Italian macaronic verse verse attributed to Teofilo Folengo a.k.a. Merlinus Cocaius (the text says "facta per Merlinum Coccajum"). The man lived from 1491 to 1544, which puts the composition of the verse somewhere in the early 16th century.

The second part, everything from Amoroſi to ſaporem, belongs to the text written in 1657. However the text is, just like Folengo's verse, written in a jocular sort of macaronic Latin-Italian, as can be seen e.g. in quotes like:

"secundum colores: alii bianchi, alii roſſi, alii gialdii, alii virides"

= Italian bianchi 'white', rossi 'red', gialli 'yellow'.

See also: "facit alegriam & ſcacciat melancoliam"

= Italian allegria 'happiness' and scaccia 'drives away'.

Or: "per quem exiverunt Cavalleri, qui urbem chiapparunt"

= Italian cavalieri 'knights' and chiapparono 'they captured'.

These are just a few nearby examples picked at random: the work is filled with similar humourous Italianisms.

That it is, essentially, a work of humour (dedicated to praising the virtues of cheese to a comical extent) can be seen everywhere, for instance in the quote:

"Ariſtotelis filoſofia imperfecta eſt quia de ſpeciis, id eſt, generibus caſeorum nihil continet."

Loosely translated: 'Aristotle's philosophy is incomplete because it mentions nothing about the various types of cheese.'

A bit further down the work discusses how the ancient Romans were only victorious because they always carried cheese with them on campaigns, and it claims that women think that men who do not eat cheese are weak and terrible in bed:

"Romani tot victorias contra hoſtes habuerunt, quia in bellum nunquam ſine Caſeo andabant [...] Puellæ judicant eum qui formagium non comedit debilem, delicatum & ad venerem mutilum, vel ſaltem ineptum."

I would not use macaronic Italian-Latin as confirmation that formagium (the text actually treats it as masculine, i.e. formagius) was current in the Latin of that age any more than the other humourous italianisms mentioned above.The Nicodene (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Findings and conclusions

I have removed the macaronic verses because, as mentioned above, they are full of humourous ad-hoc italianisms (cf. also alegriam, scacciat, cavalleri, chiapparunt, etc.), and so formagium and formagius appear to simply be jocular renderings of Italian formaggio.

Below I will consider the legitimate attestations of formagium among the quotes that you have collected.

——

The quote beginning with “Mercathentiam intelligimus pannum lane” is part of a series of statutes from the city of Bergamo that date to the thirteenth century, according to the Historiae Patriae Monumenta: “Ex anecdoto imperfecto Codice Pergam. saec. XIII, qui jam in Cancellaria comunis, et nunc in publica Civitatis Bibliotheca asservatur." Link.

——

The quote beginning with “Saluo, quod si aliqua persona ciuitatis” is part of a series of statutes from Como written in the fourteenth century, according to the Periodico Storico Comense: “E quando la città di Como passò sotto il dominio dei Visconti, diventarono esecutive anche per Como le leggi daziarie di Milano, e furono perciò inscritte nel codice che da noi si pubblica […] il qual codice […] è, come già sopra si disse, un manoscritto della fine del secolo XIV." Link.

——

The quote “De his qui vendunt formagium et salume ad minutum” is part of a series of statutes from Corvara written in the year 1407, according to the Giornale ligustico di archeologia, storia e letteratura: “Gli statuti portano la data del 1407”. Link.

——

The quote beginning with “Liber medicine in practica de santitate corporis” is the incipit of a Latin document copied in Northern Italy in the first half of the fifteenth century, according to the scholar Sebastiano Bisson (2002, p. 128): “Il s'agit d'un codex sur papier de la première moitié du XVe siècle, copié dans le nord de l'Italie.” Link.

——

The quote beginning with “Item, quòd non ſit aliqua perſona, cujuſvis gradus exiſtat” is part of a series of statutes from Bergamo. No date is given in the sources, so I had to figure it out on my own. Fortunately this was not too difficult.

The document states:

“Evaſimus enim veluti è ſæviſſimis tempeſtatibus, & procellis in amœniſſimum quendam, tutiſſimumque mundi portum, in Venetorum ſcilicet potentiſſimum ſanctiſſimumque Imperium […] Annus eſt hic tertius ſuprà ſexageſimum, poſteaquàm ſub eorum Imperium venimus poſt Bellum maximum ab eis cum Philippo Maria Vice-comite..." Link.

In other words: "We escaped, as if from the most brutal tempests and storms, into the loveliest and safest port in the world, namely the most powerful and sacred dominion of Venice [...] It is now the sixty-third year after we entered into their rule after the great war that they fought with Filippo Maria Visconti..."

This is a reference to the conquest of Bergamo by Venice in 1428 during its war with Milan, which was led by Filippo Maria Visconti. Sixty-three years later would put us in 1491.

A bit further below, it is mentioned that “ſub optimo maximoque Principe […] Auguſtino Barbadico Leges noſstras confirmari contigerit […] Nam illius tanta fuit in hoc noſtro deſiderio manſuetudo, liberalitas, & clementia, ut omni alacritate Leges noſtras jam reformatas, & in uno Codice collectas […] confeſtìm cum Juſtiſſimi Senatus auctoritate confirmandas duxit…”

This is a reference to Agostino Barbarigo, who was the Doge of Venice in the period 1486–1501, which supports the dating to 1491. Apparently he pushed for the compilation and authorization of these statutes.

——

Finally, the quote “It. Vt singulj colonj iuxta numerum dicationis dent mediam pintham Budensem butirj, et vnum caseum vel formagium et vnum quartale mellis.” dates to the year 1543 according to the Uj magyar múzeum: “ad ann. 1543." Link.

This is explained as a decree “De victualibus Imperatori Turcarum et do modo Ordinationibusque eorundem”. The Ottomans had just conquered the city of Buda (which is mentioned in the Latin quote) approximately two years prior, so the dating seems quite plausible.

——

As for my translations of the quotes, I won't go too in-depth into them (unless someone requests clarification) except to point out that matellum was a rather obscure word, apparently referring to a type of cheese, as stated in the Opere di Teofilo Folengo: "matellum (formaium)– formaggio da contadini (matel, bresciano, significa rusticano)." Link.

——

I have scoured the web looking for attestations of formagium (other than in macaronic Italo-Latin) and was unable to find any dating later than the sixteenth century.

No source mentions formagium as a New, Neo-, or Modern Latin word; all of them refer to it as medieval.

The fact that it is attested at least once in 1543, while New Latin refers to the “revival of Latin used in original, scholarly, and scientific works since about 1500”, does not ipso facto mean that formagium should qualify as New Latin.

Rather, formagium appears to be a Medieval word that died out, as far as I can tell, right as New Latin was beginning to take off.

If you have no objections, @J3133, I will accordingly remove the label New Latin. The Nicodene (talk) 07:20, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I have added two new quotes.

The one beginning with "Et precipiam consulibus" is found in a medieval Pavian document dating precisely to 1295, according to the document itself: "In nomine domini nostri ihesu christi amen. Incipit breve mercadantie mercatorum papie, exemplatum et emendatum per sapientes ipsius mercadantie. MCCLXXXXV, existence potestate papie Alberico de soardis." Link.

The one beginning with "Vinum carrum medium" is found in a Milanese document dating to 1345, according to the document itself: "Datum Mediolani xx^o septembris m^o.ccc.xlv." Link.

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It is becoming increasingly clear that the term formagium is a specialty of medieval northern Italy. The Nicodene (talk) 19:41, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I have added a new quote ("Item statuimus et ordinamus...") which is from early medieval Ragusa. I am not entirely certain about the date, because the source that mentions it is in Croatian. However, from what I gather of the discussion (which I can read to some extent, as a speaker of Russian) it dates to approximately 1277. If any Croatian speaker comes along and either confirms or corrects this, I would be infinitely grateful for their help.

——

As for how the word formadium found its way to Ragusa in the first place, I imagine it was due to the Ragusans' close commercial contacts with Venice, which also ruled them at the time. The Nicodene (talk) 21:12, 15 June 2021 (UTC)