Talk:grass tops

RFV discussion: October 2013–June 2014

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grass tops

Rfv-sense X 2

1. Adjective: It looks as if the usage is not of a true adjective, but rather attributive use of the noun.
2. 2nd full definition: "A lobbying strategy which aims to involve people with power or influence at a local level." I am skeptical that there can be three instances of this use, which seems careless.

-- DCDuring TALK 15:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

As an adjective. I realize that the first two are just versions of the same quote, but one is printed with a hyphen and the other with a space:

• 2003, Tom Palmer, "Leaders' Retreat to Focus on Budget", The Ledger, 16 August 2003:

  "If it's just grass-tops and not grassroots, we won't get a good result," he said.

• 2003, "Polk With a Vision", The Ledger, 22 August 2003:

  Larry Skidmore, Polk's director of human services, said that's exactly what was planned: "If it's just grass tops and not grassroots, we won't get a good result."

• 2003, Cara Gardner, "Prepping For Surgery", The Pacific Northwest Inlander, 6 November 2003:

  "Some of the work is grassroots," he said, "and some of it is grass-tops -- like this summit."

• 2007, Carla Marinucci, "Obama’s team oozes optimism", San Francisco Chronicle, 12 November 2007:

  Schwartz said Clinton’s campaign in California — which has been heavy on endorsements and organization — is more “grasstops” than “grassroots,” while the Illinois senator has “a campaign of inspiration and not obligation.”

• 2011, Mark Totten, "Viewpoint: Promoting the potential of The Promise", Kalamazoo Gazette, 1 April 2011:

  But the response is not just grasstops; it's also grassroots.

• 2012, Sophie Yan, "New group seeks to incite political action", Brown Daily Herald (Brown University), 3 December 2012:

  “We are grassroots, not grass-tops,” Kaplan said, meaning Common Sense Action seeks the opinions of all members regardless of leadership status within the group.

-Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Removed the second (not counting the plural) noun sense because you're probably right that it's impossible to cite. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• The 2012 cite seems more easily interpretable as the noun. The others still don't seem right as adjectives, but they certainly seem to meet our formal standards. Please give me a little time to find some support for my dissatisfaction or to become reconciled to the usage. DCDuring TALK 23:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

These all seem to be nouns. You can say 'these are dogs' but it doesn't mean 'dogs' is an adjective because it follows 'to be'. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think those with a singular verb not be explained away that way. DCDuring TALK 18:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The verb agrees with the subject not the object. Grasstops isn't being used as a subject in any of these so it's just a question of agreement between the noun/pronoun and the verb, which is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

So sorry. The subject AND the verb in several cases is singular. I would expect agreement.

In addition, we have one instance of a comparative. DCDuring TALK 19:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

There was another discussion a while ago in which questions were raised over whether some cites represented an adjective modifying a noun or a noun attributively modifying a second noun. I took a few things away from that discussion about how to search for less ambiguous cites for a would-be adjective: look for comparatives ("more hippie"), instances of gradation ("extremely hippie," "a little hippie"), and instances of the word being used independently of a noun ("this is hippie" vs. "hippie food"). If there's anything I could do to refine that formula, I'd appreciate some pointers. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

A couple more that I found:

• 2012, Joe Durwin, "New Mass. Arts Lobby Presents Platform to Cultural Leaders", iBerkshires.com, 17 October 2012:

  "We need to have the muscle, the political strength, and the united community to get what we want," said Wilson, who added that most of the political advocacy for the arts in Massachusetts over the past decade has been more "grass tops" than grass roots, the bulk of it done by leaders and boards of cultural institutions.

• 2013, Petra Bartosiewicz & Marissa Miley, "The Too Polite Revolution: Why the Recent Campaign to Pass Comprehensive Climate Legislation in the United States Failed", page 68:

  “The approach was very grass-tops,” said Greenpeace’s Phil Radford.

-Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 21:06, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

For attestation these last two probably don't count because it is not at all clear that they are durably archived, but they help me personally get reconciled to the use of this as an adjective. I think your previous evidence (except the 2012 cite) is sufficient for attestation. It would be nice for someone else to weigh in.

As for refining the kind of citations for discriminating word-class membership, I have based everything on my readings of Huddleston & Pullum's CGEL. I don't know what other sources could supplement that, but there probably are some articles. Ruakh has had some good ideas for handling some tough cases. DCDuring TALK 21:47, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Compare:

• 2014, James E. Anderson, Public Policymaking, p. 64:

  In recent years, groups have made considerable use of “outside lobbying” techniques, which try to persuade ordinary citizens to serve as their frontline advocates. Prominent here are “grass-roots” and “grass-tops” lobbying.

• 2014, Kerric Harvey, Encyclopedia of Social Media and Politics, Volume 1, p. 87:

  A spin-off technique, known as grass tops, uses influential community leaders such as mayors, religious leaders, and business executives to lobby members of Congress and regulators.

Closing as cited for sense 1. bd2412 T 13:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)