Talk:hitsura
@TagaSanPedroAko Just to say, I find it a bit of an issue when the KWF prescribes itsura instead of hitsura, and the same way arina instead of harina, because now it's not just prescribing a spelling, it's not prescribing a legit variant, and it's prescribing the less popular variant. And it's obvious that the premise for their prescription of the variants without H is because H is not pronounced in modern Spanish, but we know these words are older borrowings from when Spanish pronounced the H like a soft F. My issue here is that Wiktionary is a descriptive dictionary, not a prescriptive one, especially with pronunciation. I don't really care what spelling words are, because we change it all the time, but in terms of which variant of a word is the main entry in Wiktionary, following the guidelines of Wiktionary, we follow the most popular variant as used by people, and I would argue it's hitsura and harina. So that's my take. P.S. For actual variants, we shouldn't remove the pronunciation part especially if the variant is pronounced differently, and the etymology part if there's relevant information why the variant is different etymologically, such as "hitsura" being borrowed from early modern Spanish. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
- I see. Yes, KWF Diksiyonaryo looks kind of prescriptive in terms of spelling (and I find that true since it doesn't list siyokoy/pseudo-Hispanisms except things that slip across like eksplanasyon or also polisiya; I can't even find our most common word for “fake”, pekè in Diksiyonaryo, possibly people in KWF believe it has a hint of being a siyokoy word), but from other dictionaries I have (such as my copy of Diksiyunaryong Pilipino-Ingles), I do find both, and I don't have any problem moving it to the present standard spelling by KWF. For harina, yes, it's still the common spelling, and we would treat the newer spelling arina a spelling added by KWF (Sagalongos 1968 only lists the H spelling).
- In terms of etymology, I think hitsura/itsura is from post-1800 Spanish due to the CH sound, which in earlier borrowings tend to merge with S (the same also happened with instances of Spanish words with the /sj/ consonant pair since such were practically forbidden by Tagalog phonology of that time, so the merger); the form with H is a later addition, which has since been common, but still equally standard. An early modern Spanish derivation is likely for harina. Such notes, which can help on what stage of Spanish a word is borrowed from is something of note to add on WT:ATL.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:16, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: Interesting observations for the CH sound. Can you name a Spanish loanword with the CH sound that became S due to being an early borrowing? I can only think of chayote becoming sayote, but that may be just because its an initial consonant. I'm trying to think of one that's in the middle of the word. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- I can't think of one, unfortunately. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
- @TagaSanPedroAko: Interesting observations for the CH sound. Can you name a Spanish loanword with the CH sound that became S due to being an early borrowing? I can only think of chayote becoming sayote, but that may be just because its an initial consonant. I'm trying to think of one that's in the middle of the word. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)