Talk:knob jockey

RFV discussion: December 2022–February 2023

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

---

knob jockey

"A promiscuous woman." It makes logical sense but I've only ever heard it to refer to an obnoxious person. Equinox ◑ 18:59, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Partridge's slang dictionary gives this meaning (along with homosexual man), but only cites other dictionaries, Roger's Profanisaurus and Dictionary of Playground Slang. I couldn't find the cited edition of Roger, but the 2005 and 2010 editions have a completely different definition: "Someone who sits on a door handle whilst the door is in motion for sexual gratification", with no references provided. I couldn't find Playground Slang at all. 70.172.194.25 19:26, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Don't trust the Viz reference: that's surely Roger's Profanisaurus, a famous series of deliberately absurd rude slang inventions. Equinox ◑ 19:28, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

What's to verify? "Knob" is British slang for a penis. Anyone who rides a knob is therefore a knob-jockey, whether male or female. — This unsigned comment was added by 2.25.65.81 (talk) at 16:37, 22 December 2022 (UTC).

We need to verify this phrase is truly, in real life, used to mean this thing. The fact that it might logically mean it in theory is not enough, naturally. (Example: "wang" also means penis, but there are zero relevant Google hits for "wang jockey": it could mean it, but it doesn't.) Equinox ◑ 18:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

"We need to verify this phrase is truly, in real life, used to mean this thing." Why? If a friend said to a female friend "Damn you're a complete slut, a complete knob jockey" it would be obvious what's meant, wouldn't it? And especially since knob jockey is already established usage for a man who rides knob. So why not a woman who rides (a lot of) knob? Also I've never heard the term "wang jockey" ever used, but if it was it would be immediately understandable. As would wiener jockey or dick jockey (which as a plus sounds like disk jockey). Also meaning 4 is essentially the same as calling someone "gay" for saying something stupid or doing something incompetently. Meanings 1 and 2 are immediately obvious from the context. I'd say meaning 4 isn't unless you're already familiar with the term. Has meaning 4 been verified? — This unsigned comment was added by 2.25.65.81 (talk) at 18:38, 22 December 2022.

I think you're arguing that knob jockey is what we call sum of parts ... a phrase whose meaning is evident just from looking at the words it contains. I would say that it is not sum-of-parts at all, and has a good reason to be listed in our dictionary. We just need to pin down the meaning.

I'd say the meaning is far from obvious, as illustrated by the very fact that we're arguing about it here. You yourself just admitted that knob is primarily British slang, and a lot of Americans might not be used to hearing it, so just based on that, the meaning isn't obvious to a large portion of our readers. Sure, by adulthood most Americans have probably heard knob in that sense, but it's best that we don't assume things like this .... the people who come to Wiktionary to look up slang terms are precisely the sort of people who are least likely to know what they mean.

By the same logic, i'd say wang jockey would deserve a listing too, IF it were in common use, which I doubt. That's an entirely different policy unrelated to the sum-of-parts thing, but for a similar reason. Imagine if we listed literally everything people made up. Again, remember that a lot of Wiktionary readers are young people and second language learners, since experts have less of a need to look up words ..... if we listed words that only a few people used, we'd have people coming here thinking that sleep flower was another word for opium poppies and that examplanation was a perfectly accepted term for an explanation illustrated by an example. Hope this helps. —Soap— 20:40, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

"I'd say the meaning is far from obvious, as illustrated by the very fact that we're arguing about it here. You yourself just admitted that knob is primarily British slang..." The entry is labelled as UK usage. "... and a lot of Americans might not be used to hearing it, so just based on that, the meaning isn't obvious to a large portion of our readers." Anyone who's never heard the term "knob jockey" before and who wants to know what it means will Google the term (other search engines are available). ".... the people who come to Wiktionary to look up slang terms are precisely the sort of people who are least likely to know what they mean" - Well exactly - that's precisely the point of dictionaries. "By the same logic, i'd say wang jockey would deserve a listing too, IF it were in common use" - But it isn't, is it? "if we listed words that only a few people used, we'd have people coming here thinking that sleep flower was another word for opium poppies and that examplanation was a perfectly accepted term for an explanation illustrated by an example." Idiotic comments. "Hope this helps." No it doesn't. Also, again, has meaning 3 been verified? At the very least add a comment saying that a knob jockey is someone who rides knob. — This unsigned comment was added by 2.25.65.81 (talk) at 21:44, 22 December 2022.

There’s a very clear use here[1] —Overlordnat1 (talk) 20:57, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I can't view the passage. Could you please add the citation to Citations:knob jockey or the main entry? 70.172.194.25 21:52, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I just found this as well: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057982060/love-island-2019-please-see-note-in-op/p151 "She’s a knob jockey of the highest order isn’t she." Date 2019. — This unsigned comment was added by 2.25.65.81 (talk) at 21:56, 22 December 2022.

How do we know this isn't just using it as a term of abuse? The quoted comment to which your linked comment is responding is not directly about sexual promiscuity, it's more like "look at that cheeky lass, starting drama, tsk tsk". Also, the comment directly underneath it directs a bunch of generic insults at the same woman. I even went through a few of the previous pages and saw a lot disparaging remarks directed at "Anna", but not specifically slut-shaming, so I think the meaning is unclear at best, leaning toward sense 3. Btw, please end your comments with ~~~~. 70.172.194.25 22:03, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh good grief. Google: love island 2019 anna slut. Then get back to me. Also what does adding 2.25.65.81 22:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC) at the end of comments do? Edit: Right, I've just worked out what it does, it adds my IP address, time and date. I initally typed 4 tildes and they automatically got converted into my IP address. Not sure why you want to know that though.

I just Googled that and the top article is talking about Anna slut-shaming other women. Besides, I'd rather rely on direct evidence within a text that a word conveys a certain meaning. The comment directly below the one you linked calls her an "awful rotten shít^[sic] stirring bitch" and a "horrible person", but doesn't talk about sexual promiscuity, which fits in with the comment above it too. If we're looking for evidence of usage that convincingly means "promiscuous woman", this isn't it. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just giving my honest reading; if this sense is really in use, hopefully we can find other examples that provide less ambiguous evidence for it. Signing comments in discussions with four tildes is the standard procedure on Wiktionary, Wikipedia, and pretty much any site using MediaWiki software. It just helps to keep track of who said what and when. Think about how hard it would be to follow this thread if the usernames like "Equinox", "Soap", and the dates were omitted; it would just be an unstructured wall of text with varying indentation. 70.172.194.25 22:28, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Wow, very selective. The third link https://closeronline.co.uk/entertainment/tv-movies/love-island-anna-vakili/ states: "Anna, 28, says, “All my life, I’ve been in relationships in and out and I’ve always been the heartbreaker. I’ve gone for the wrong kind of guy..."" So if that isn't referring to sexual relationships, what IS it referring to?

cited. Kiwima (talk) 23:49, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Those are good citations, thanks. 70.172.194.25 23:55, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

They’re definitely convincing. The passage I linked to earlier is the 2010 passage that Kiwima added (the one about having more pricks than a dartboard), in case you’re wondering. Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Where on earth did the "promiscuous man" meaning come from? For a man to be a knob-jockey he has to ride knob. The citations make no sense if bearing that in mind. A woman got pregnant "Thanks to a crap shag with a knob-jockey"? That makes absolutely no sense. My guess is that the writer doesn't know what knob-jockey means and used it incorrectly. I'd guess that knobhead/dickhead was meant. 2.25.65.81 18:38, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I think the sense of "promiscuous man" makes sense if we interpret "knob jockey" as "a jockey with/using a knob". Ioaxxere (talk) 15:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

A jockey rides a horse. A knob jockey rides knob. I have no idea what "a jockey with/using a knob" even means. Can you clarify? 2.25.65.81 20:25, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

I mean that compound words can often be interpreted in more than one way. For example, dog doctor can be "a doctor who treats dogs" or "a doctor who is a dog". Similarly, I suspect that a "knob jockey" can be "a jockey who rides knobs" or "a jockey who has a knob". This would account for the contradictory definitions. Ioaxxere (talk) 23:29, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

"I mean that compound words can often be interpreted in more than one way." Yes they can. "For example, dog doctor can be "a doctor who treats dogs" or "a doctor who is a dog"." The term you're looking for is vet/veterinarian - is there such a thing as a vet who only treats dogs? As for a doctor who is a dog, OK as a joke, but add a footnote or something to explain that. (A similar example would be "animal face painting": Is this painting humans with animal-looking faces or humans painting animals' faces? Or animals painting humans' or other animals' faces?). "Similarly, I suspect that a "knob jockey" can be "a jockey who rides knobs" or "a jockey who has a knob"." What does "a jockey who has a knob even mean?" That would be a male (horse) jockey surely? "This would account for the contradictory definitions." No it wouldn't unless you say something that actually makes sense. 2.25.65.81 02:10, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm deleting this entire so-called "meaning", because it's absolute nonsense. 2.25.65.81 04:43, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Reverted. You have no understanding of how a descriptive dictionary works. A language exists in the minds of its speakers- things mean what its speakers think they mean, not what makes sense to you. The history of English is full of obvious errors that no one with any sense or intelligence could possibly accept becoming universally accepted standards. deal with it. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Reverted on what grounds? See my comments below starting "NONE of these citations are convincing imo". You wrote: "You have no understanding of how a descriptive dictionary works. A language exists in the minds of its speakers- things mean what its speakers think they mean, not what makes sense to you." What absolute nonsense. Even Wiktionary uses USAGE NOTES to indicate if a word is incorrectly used, e.g. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/infer The citations given for meaning 3 (a) don't back up the definition of a promiscuous man at all and (b) a knob jockey is someone who rides knob, which a promiscuous (straight) man doesn't. This definition is absolute nonsense. Did you write it? 2.25.65.81 20:25, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

This reminds me of the arguments used against double negatives: they were said to make no sense because the two negatives contradicted each other. Those who said that didn't consider the possibility that the second negative was there to reinforce the the first one by repetition. It turns out that there are lots of languages throughout the world (French and Spanish, for instance) that use double negatives with no problems at all. Language is far too complex for one person to be completely sure of what everyone else's usage means all the time. I can't tell you how many times I've been ready to revert something, but a quick check has shown that the person who added it was right. It's entirely possible that the sense in question may end up getting deleted- but it's too early to make that determination. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

You still haven't addressed the points I raised. I'll start with just one point: The citations given for meaning 3 don't back up the definition of a promiscuous man at all. What is your response to that? 2.25.65.81 13:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree that this sense could use better evidence. Specifically, the Langlais quote and possibly the Booker quote seem ambiguous, and could potentially be interpreted as generic insults instead of meaning "promiscuous man". On the other hand, the Edmonds quote seems to support this definition, and I don't think any of the other meanings fit. You couldn't really replace it with "douchebag" or "homosexual" and have it make sense. 70.172.194.25 18:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

NONE of these citations are convincing imo. Langlais: "She also needed a certain knob jockey to leave her alone." Meaning what exactly? Is this an example of not knowing what knob-jockey actually means and how to use the term correctly? Is what is meant actually knobhead/dickhead? If it DOES mean a promiscuous man, then that isn't clear from this context at all. Booker: "How are you?' he said. 'Pregnant. Thanks to a crap shag with a knob-jockey.'" Well this one makes absolutely no sense at all. I'm pretty sure the person meant knobhead/dickhead and didn't know what knob-jockey actually means. Edmonds: ""And I'm going to guess," Gawler said, still not moving from his spot, "that you wankers get-off by beating up your women because it makes you feel better about your problem," he gestured to Johnny's crotch, “not much good as a knob jockey.”" Here I'd guess it's an insult meaning that Johnny is a bad shag/lay (i.e. bad in bed). 2.25.65.81 19:37, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I pretty much agree your interpretations are plausible, but for the Edmonds one, if "not much good as a knob jockey" means "bad lay", then doesn't that imply "knob jockey" means "good lay" or something else associated with sexual prowess? It's not just being used as a generic term of abuse. 70.172.194.25 19:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

"if "not much good as a knob jockey" means "bad lay", then doesn't that imply "knob jockey" means "good lay"?". No because I'm suggesting that the term knob-jockey was used incorrectly in this specific context. What I think the person meant to say was "Not much good as a swordsman.": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swordsman [meaning 3]. That would make MUCH more sense in this specific context imo. I think a lot of the citations are instances of people not knowing what knob-jockey actually means and they're using the term incorrectly. In many cases I think that what is actually meant is knobhead/dickhead, or douchebag as you said above. 2.25.65.81 21:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Even if terms are used "incorrectly", they still have a place in this project. Even infer which you mentioned has that definition even though it's considered "incorrect". Same with the proscribed & nonstandard labels that we use and categorize based upon. Regardless of whether or not you think the term is used incorrectly, if it can be shown that 3 authors intended to use that word with that meaning, then it can be included. AG202 (talk) 02:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"Even if terms are used "incorrectly", they still have a place in this project." What? Firstly, don't put the word INCORRECTLY in quotes as if being correct isn't a black and white matter. Secondly, as I said USAGE NOTES are perfect for explaining to users that people use certain words incorrectly (e.g. literally, teach/learn, imply/infer, affect/effect, etc). "Even infer which you mentioned has that definition even though it's considered "incorrect"." If someone says "infer" when they mean "imply", then that it IS incorrect - no need for quotes. "Regardless of whether or not you think the term is used incorrectly, if it can be shown that 3 authors intended to use that word with that meaning, then it can be included." Meaning 3 makes absolutely no sense. The citations DO NOT support the definition. If you think that they do, knock yourself out and explain to me how exactly. 2.25.65.81 03:26, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

The fact that you're focusing on the act of putting incorrect in quotations rather than the substance of the argument is telling. Being correct is not a black-and-white matter with language, there are plenty of words and usages that are dubious depending on the language authority, group of speakers, etc. Usage notes are useful, but as seen on effect and the fact that we have a {{misspelling of}} template, even misspellings can be listed as a definition provided that they fill the criteria. Being incorrect or proscribed does not stop a definition from being listed. The 3 authors portion was based on the binding criteria in WT:CFI. Note: I did not say that the cites currently support the definition, but stated that "if it can be shown...", so there's no need to be rude towards me, especially over something that I did not say. To be frank with you, considering that you as an IP have only participated in this discussion, I would try to be much more cordial if you actually want your position to be taken seriously, otherwise folks will choose to not continue in discussion with you and the ultimate decision will move on without you. I bit the bullet trying to explain how usages are listed here, but alas, it doesn't seem fruitful on my end to continue past this point. AG202 (talk) 03:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"Note: I did not say that the cites currently support the definition, but stated that "if it can be shown...", so there's no need to be rude towards me" How was I rude? I asked you to explain yourself. I wrote: "Meaning 3 makes absolutely no sense. The citations DO NOT support the definition. If you think that they do, knock yourself out and explain to me how exactly." And you've failed to do so. 2.25.65.81 03:48, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

As for the gay man definition: What if he's only ever a "top", not a "bottom". In that case he's not a knob-jockey, is he, because he doesn't ride knob. Or what about a man who's straight but engages in so-called "gay-for-pay" porn where he's the "bottom"? This entry (no pun intended) requires quite a bit of work. 2.25.65.81 19:37, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

This citation is dubious imo: "If we have time, I need to divert to Los Angeles, and find out if Charlie Li is coming back to work.” Jessica frowned. “I haven't heard from him since he married that Hollywood knob jockey.” What is meant here? That the person he married is a knobhead/dickhead? (i.e. using the term knob-jockey incorrectly). That the person is a woman? Or that the person is a man? It's not clear from the context at all. 2.25.65.81 18:49, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

What exactly is the meaning of knob-jockey in this scene from the UK Channel 4 comedy series "Bo Selecta"? (timestamp 2:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPSaAWkYVQ The Bear calls Stephen the Squirrel a knob-jockey. But he said that immediately after claiming that Jennifer had called him a knobhead (i.e. a dickhead). Was he calling the squirrel gay? (Do you get gay squirrels???). Or was he just using the term as a throwaway comical term, just because calling a squirrel a knob-jockey (in the sense of gay) is absurd/funny in its own right? 2.25.65.81 19:37, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I would say that it's just being used as a general insult in Bo Selecta. The promiscuous man quotes aren't entirely convincing and the quote about a 'Hollywood knob jockey' could be a general term of abuse but with the other three quotes clearly backing the sense of a promiscuous straight woman up, I'd call that sense cited. As for whether the term refer to gays that are tops or bottoms, it's worth bearing in mind that no such distinction is made (or should be made) for bender, even though the word should logically only refer to a gay man who bends over and takes it up the arse rather than the other participant giving it to the bent over male, so let's leave the sense a gay man as it is. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 01:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"I would say that it's just being used as a general insult in Bo Selecta." Would you? Why exactly? It made me laugh because I thought The Bear was calling Stephen the Squirrel gay, which was absurd and therefore funny. And in any case, I'd say that in meaning 4 two of the abusive meanings could be replaced with the word "knobhead" or "dickhead": Monet and Sinclair-Thomson. I have no idea what is meant by the Keil citation (it sounds like utter gibberish to me) or the Sharp/Richman/Catterson citation. Plus the latter quote makes no sense anyway: "Children can be so cruel and he would delight in pronouncing 'disc jockey' as 'knob jockey'." The two terms sound nothing alike. "Dick jockey" (kinda) sounds like "disk jockey" though.

The promiscuous man quotes aren't entirely convincing and the quote about a 'Hollywood knob jockey' could be a general term of abuse but with the other three quotes clearly backing the sense of a promiscuous straight woman up, I'd call that sense cited. As for whether the term refer to gays that are tops or bottoms, it's worth bearing in mind that no such distinction is made (or should be made) for bender, even though the word should logically only refer to a gay man who bends over and takes it up the arse rather than the other participant giving it to the bent over male, so let's leave the sense a gay man as it is 2.25.65.81 02:48, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"The promiscuous man quotes aren't entirely convincing." No kidding. "And the quote about a 'Hollywood knob jockey' could be a general term of abuse but with the other three quotes clearly backing the sense of a promiscuous straight woman up, I'd call that sense cited." So would I - I'm deleting "Can we verify this sense". "As for whether the term refer to gays that are tops or bottoms, it's worth bearing in mind that no such distinction is made (or should be made) for bender..." Um, surely that's a non sequitur? I never mentioned bender, nor did anyone else. "... even though the word should logically only refer to a gay man who bends over and takes it up the arse..." Is that the etymology? I thought that "bender" derived from "bent" (i.e. not straight). 2.25.65.81 04:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Can we establish if meaning 3 is referring to a straight male? 2.25.65.81 04:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I've deleted the 4th citation for meaning 2 (Bilderback) because it doesn't support the definition. 2.25.65.81 04:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I've deleted the Hunt citation for meaning 1 because it doesn't support the definition. 2.25.65.81 04:42, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

You deleted every attestation. I will block you if you do it again. Theknightwho (talk) 15:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Who the fuck are you? You'll block me if I delete citations that don't support the defintions they claim to support? Well, that's totally fucked up. You're a fucking moron. 2.25.65.81 17:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

The Mahmutefendić citation for meaning 1 doesn't make much sense: "I can't fucking stand those sorts of men, but the biggest dope in all of this is me for letting myself fall in love with such a waste of space, knob-jockey, lady-boy, the piercing pressed deeper into her brain, but she no longer felt like improvising and imagining what would be if it would only be, […]" Knob-jockey and lady-boy aren't synonyms.

The Newbold citation for meaning 1 is convincing except for the word "nonce": "He's right though, a queer, a nonce, shirt lifter, shit stabber, knob jockey, uphill gardener, bender, homosexual." In UK slang a nonce is a sex offender, specifically a kiddy-fiddler. All the other terms mean gay, but nonce is a strange inclusion. Can anyone make any sense of this?

I've deleted the Langlais citation for meaning 3 because it doesn't support the definition: "She also needed a certain knob jockey to leave her alone."

I've deleted the Booker citation for meaning 3 because it doesn't support the definition.

I've deleted the Edmonds citation for meaning 3 because it doesn't support the definition.

Meaning 4 needs a LOT of work. — This comment was unsigned.

• I blocked 2.25.65.81, who had started w:WP:POINTY additions of made-up senses, for two weeks; I debated whether to issue a shorter warning block just to give time to cool off, or a longer block to give us enough time to hopefully resolve this RFV, ultimately going with the latter. I will say, of the citations the IP removed, I was actually myself inclined to move "black skinny jeans, a Ramones Tshirt and Converse runners" to the cites page as not being clear (or copyedited). I expanded the "Hollywood knob jockey" cite with the following sentence, which clarifies that it is indeed the promiscuous woman sense and not the following sense (a player) which would otherwise have been a plausible alternative interpretation. I agree the cites under the "player" sense seem to support it, and the reasons people might use the word that way are obvious, notwithstanding the IP's dislike of it. (Besides it being a jockey who has a knob, there is the analysis that a horse jockey uses his horse in many races, guiding it to its goal of the finish line, and a knob jockey uses his knob and guides it to its own goal. Also, knob sometimes means clit, so perhaps a knob jockey may be riding clit.) - -sche (discuss) 18:12, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Bans based on an IP address are easy to get round if you know how knobhead.

"I blocked 2.25.65.81, who had started w:WP:POINTY additions of made-up senses, for two weeks". That's an absolute lie. I didn't make up meaning 2, I just didn't have citations for it. Other people have provided some. As for the obviously nonsensical meanings I added to the list yesterday that was to show up Chuck Entz's claim that "A language exists in the minds of its speakers- things mean what its speakers think they mean, not what makes sense to you." The fact that my nonsensical meanings were removed so quickly proves that people here clearly DO know a nonsensical meaning when they see one despite claims to the contrary. "I debated whether to issue a shorter warning block just to give time to cool off, or a longer block to give us enough time to hopefully resolve this RFV, ultimately going with the latter." Well how very capricious of you. Who moderates you? You're not qualified to be a moderator. "I agree the cites under the "player" sense seem to support it". Do you really? On what grounds? NONE of them support the meaning of a "PROMISCUOUS man". I've asked people to explain how the citations back up the given meaning and all I get is crickets. "and the reasons people might use the word that way are obvious" - yeah, they're using the word incorrectly. "Besides it being a jockey who has a knob, there is the analysis that a horse jockey uses his horse in many races, guiding it to its goal of the finish line, and a knob jockey uses his knob and guides it to its own goal." Damn, what absolute nonsense. Then the term should be "pussy jockey" then, shouldn't it. A man can't ride his own knob - well unless he's ludicrously well hung. I'm English and have never once heard "knob jockey" used in that way to mean a promiscuous man.

I told you bans can be got around knobhead. The fact you ban me, lie about me and don't answer any points I raise prove how unsuited you are to being a moderator. You're an absolute plank.

You've tried to block me twice now and failed both times. You're completely incompetent.

RFV Passed for all senses. The opposing IP has been banned. Ioaxxere (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)