Talk:much

Much = Noun

f Isn't "much" a somewhat archaic noun too, as in "where much is given much is required"? Jonathan W 14:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That sense might be included in the "Determiner" meanings, but I don't understand that category well enough to tell. I added the Noun. Determiner may make sense to younger generations if they are taught it in school. It is very popular among language professionals. DCDuring TALK 00:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

that other use...

How would one describe that other use of much, as in, "Why is that celebrity always doing product endorsement ads on TV? Desperate much?" Tooironic 22:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

It looks parallel to "Drink much?" and similar expressions. In those cases it is usually the "pronoun" sense, thought sometimes it seems more like an adverb. Used with an adjective, as in "Drunk much?", much would seem to mean "often" or "frequently". But that meaning doesn't seem to apply very exactly. The expression you offer is not something I would expect to hear from the older half (2/3 ?) of the population. I would expect some of the older ones to say "Desperate or what?" for the same general meaning. DCDuring TALK 00:53, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

@DCDuring: I am a non-native speaker, and cannot understand what phrases like "desperate much" or "drunk much" mean. Could you please explain them? It seems like there's an ellypsis in both --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:25, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

@Backinstadiums: A phrase like "Desperate much?" is a rhetorical question that can be said directly to someone about themselves, or it could be said to someone about a third person ("behind their back), as in Tooironic's original example. Whether it is said in a friendly, ironic way or in a mean way, the basic meaning is: "Wow, that seems really desperate!" Another example I just found at q:Buffy the Vampire Slayer is: "Presume much?" This was said in response to the question, "How long have you known that you were gay?" In this case, the intended meaning was: "It is very presumptuous of you to ask me that question [since I haven't even told you that I'm gay]!" (I know Buffy the Vampire Slayer had many other examples of this type of phrasing, but I can't think of any right now.) As DCDuring suggested, the word "much" is apparently being used here in the adverb sense instead of the determiner sense, so there's no implied ellipsis involved. I think the main difference between the usage Tooironic is asking about and the "Drunk much?" example of DCDuring (meaning "Are you drunk very often?") is the ironic, almost-ungrammatical quality of the former — somewhat like another idiomatic construction I once posted about in the Tea room. - dcljr (talk) 19:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't like to use ellipsis as part of an explanation, unless it is fairly obvious and no other explanation works. In this case, it is fairly obvious that there is an ellipsis "(Is he) desparate much?" I hear/heard this construction (with much) only in the form of a question, and only a rhetorical one. The construction [ADJ] + much? seems a bit barbaric to me, but it is readily understood based on similar expressions of the form [Verb] + [Adverbial] + much? as in "(Do you) go out much?" or "(Do you) read much?" DCDuring (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Do you go out much? isn't quite analogous. There much means "often" (what is currently sense 2), whereas in desperate much it seems to express degree (sense 1): "very desperate?" (not *"desperate often?"). That's why it's barbaric, but "go out much?" isn't. And because of the dissimilarity, I'm doubtful that expressions of the type Do you go out much? could be the origin of desperate much. At the very least, they doesn't fully explain it. Desperate much seems almost like doge speak, though not quite because much does have an adverbial sense related to extent in other constructions. — Eru·tuon 21:02, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify: By "there's no implied ellipsis involved" I meant no ellipsis at the end of the phrase. I assumed Backinstadiums was thinking "Drunk much <something>?" Rather than "<Something> drunk much?". - dcljr (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@Dcljr: here's the excerpt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI-aCE0fja8 The intonation is similar to 'aren't you presuming too much?' --Backinstadiums (talk) 12:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Well… yeah… but you're not saying that the original two-word phrase is an abbreviation of that longer question (in the sense that the use of "much" in the longer version says something about the grammatical role of the word in the shorter one), are you? By the way, thanks for finding the clip. I hadn't actually remembered how the line was delivered. - dcljr (talk) 13:39, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

 Done via usage note. Equinox ◑ 12:16, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Obsolete sense

The obsolete sense of "large" or "great" is still preserved in the place name w:Much Wenlock. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Locative

Why is this in Category:English locatives? None of the uses have any connection to location. GaylordFancypants (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

I boldly went ahead and removed much and first from that category. GaylordFancypants (talk)

"Passive-aggressive much?", "cherry-picking much?", etc.

Is there a way we can cover that kind of informal use? Equinox ◑ 18:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

This was discussed above in the section called "that other use...". Apart from the addition of an adverb sense back in November 2009, I don't think that discussion led to any (other) changes to the entry. Do you have any suggestions? - dcljr (talk) 00:28, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

The adverb sense may be the applicable one but it doesn't explain this particular formulation (which doesn't exist with, say, "lots?" or "frequently?"). Maybe a usage note. Equinox ◑ 18:20, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Go for it. :) - dcljr (talk) 10:11, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

 Done via usage note. Equinox ◑ 12:16, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

There are some exceptions to this, however: I have much hope for the future.

What is the reason for such exceptions? Mere idiomaticity? --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:22, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Actually "I have a lot of hope" is fine too. Having "much whatever" usually sounds a little more dated. Equinox ◑ 14:31, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah. I would say "I have much hope for the future" sounds more "poetic" and perhaps more formal than "I have a lot of hope for the future", but it doesn't sound wrong (to this native English speaker [en-US]). By contrast, a statement like "I have much money in my wallet" sounds awkward, like something a non-native English speaker would say. Note, by the way, that "I have not much money in my wallet" sounds even worse, whereas "I don't have much money in my wallet" is a perfectly acceptable statement (as are "I don't have a lot of money in my wallet" and "There is not much money in my wallet"). As for what makes the good examples good and the bad examples bad (and the awkward examples awkward), I can't really say. - dcljr (talk) 10:59, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Missing obsolete noun: "a strange thing"?

Chambers 1908 has it. Equinox ◑ 12:14, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like an early version of "today's" slang sense of "extra" (adjective sense #3). [wink] Seriously, though, can you give an example sentence? - dcljr (talk) 15:14, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. I usually mention these things on talk pages when I am having trouble finding a way to attest them. Equinox ◑ 15:17, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course. (Just FYI, I am likely to unwatch this page soon, since the original reason I was here has been resolved.) - dcljr (talk) 15:27, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

much the same

should much the same be added? --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:35, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

obsolete: almost

I do not think that meaning is obsolete

That book is much like the others.
https://www.wordreference.com/definition/much

--Backinstadiums (talk) 16:50, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

not much of a

not a good…
He's not much of a tennis player.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/much_1?q=much

--Backinstadiums (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

much as

What meaning is used in much as? --Backinstadiums (talk) 18:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

In positive contexts, much is widely avoided

I'd add the register where it is so (vs say It was celebrated with much pageantry) --Backinstadiums (talk) 12:17, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

this much

this much used to introduce something positive or definite: I'll say this much for him—he never leaves a piece of work unfinished. --Backinstadiums (talk) 12:21, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Combined with adjectives

MUCH (adv) 5. Combined: (a) with past pples., as in much-abused, much-admired, much-criticized, much-loved https://oed.com/oed2/00152815 (Cf VERY https://oed.com/oed2/00276825)

However, the entry for loved reads

Adjective. 1.a. In senses of the vb.; in attributive use now chiefly poet., exc. with prefixed adv. as dearly-loved, much-loved; ordinarily superseded by beloved. https://oed.com/oed2/00136043

--Backinstadiums (talk) 17:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Modifying verbs vs adjectives

Is the adverb in these modifying the adjectives? I am very much aware of the fact I'm not much good at tennis. --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:48, 29 August 2021 (UTC)