Talk:nó

Vietnamese

@Fumiko Take: Sorry for the usage notes first of all; in hindsight it was a poorly thought-out way of wording it.

That said, I did notice that nó tended to be used more easily when discussing about foreigners. I remember several occasions on which nó was used to refer to foreigners when I was in Vietnam, sometimes in their presence, without the foreigner having an inferior status or a contemptible trait in particular. Not limited to nó; thằng as well.

For example, once I was in a travel company in the city centre, when a middle-aged, courteous-looking male foreigner came in to enquire about Mekong Delta tours. The receptionist wasn't entirely sure about the details of a tour, and asked another employee for the travel itinerary. The second employee then handed him a document, and said “có cái này cho nó coi”, and consistently used nó to refer to the foreign man in subsequent conversation. I was surely very surprised. When I asked the locals, they said this did exist ― some people do customarily use it when talking about foreigners without any disparagement, but it was “improper” (không đúng) and it probably originated from the French colonial times.

I did a bit of search on this. Found the following which I thought was interesting:

• Is there a Vietnamese word for white foreign devil? If not? Why? on Quora:

  Cao Nguyên Khải's answer:

  […] However, there is a pattern that applies for all foreigners regardless of nationality. Vietnamese sometimes tends to refer foreigners as “nó”-it instead of “anh ấy”-he or “cô ấy”-her. Using “nó” to for people is only used for children, or someone lower than you on social status. This is due to social norms of Vietnamese society usually doesn't apply for foreigners. However, this trend is disappearing when there are more contact between common Vietnamese people and foreigners.

  Vincent Lee's answer:

  […] In our privacy, we’d addressed people derogatorily as “thằng này”, “con kia” translated roughly into meaning a distant “it”. Lowest recognition on the social order.

• How do I address you? Let me count the ways...

  David is right that foreigners are not expected to abide by Vietnamese naming practices--and Vietnamese do not use the same terms when talking about foreigners. I would not dream of referring to my (Chinese) husband as "no" but many Vietnamese women married to Chinese or other foreigners do so as a matter of course.

  […]

  I confirm Professor Hue Tam's finding--which is also my experience in contact with clients in law practic-- that many Vietnamese women call their foreign husbands as "nó' in such sentences as "th?ng ch?ng em nó k? l?m" or "th?ng ch?ng em nó t?t l?m"--withour derogatory meaning or disrespect, as if these women have been liberated enough for marrying foreigners who treat them on an equal footing (no more "ch?ng chúa v? tôi" as in some old-fashioned families) and it is ok to refer to husbands as "nó"-- Or is it these Vietnamese women's literal translation of "him" into "nó"in the mind of these women who have forgotten the more refined way of referring to husband as "anh ?y", "ông ?y", "anh chàng ?y","nhà tôi"?

  […]

  I notice too that people in my company say 'no' to refer to foreigners but would never use it to refer to Vietnamese groups. This makes me wonder if this is to mark that foreigners are separated from Vietnamese, or if it is to mark less respect for foreigners amongst themselves.

  […]

  'Nó' I consider the equivalent of "it" when Vietnamese use vis a vis foreigners. Not really pejorative, but still a bit disrespectful.

The above is just some trivia I would like to share. Native speakers certainly know the situation much better than me. @PhanAnh123 may have insights to share too.

Thanks, Wyang (talk) 10:29, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang: "Nó" is not a specific way to refer to foreigners, and there's no such "system". At best, it's a pattern of behavior: the more emotionally detached you are from someone, the more comfortable it is to refer to them as "nó". I personally use "nó" to refer to distant entities that I don't care about, foreign or not. People just have way less emotional attachment to foreigners, so it's just way more comfortable to refer to some European dude or gal as "thằng Tây" ("that Western son of a gun"), "con Tây" ("that Western bitch"), or "nó" ("it"). I'm definitely guilty of this at times too, and as Joe Ruelle (who's fluent in Vietnamese) noted in his book Ngược chiều vun vút, a lot of people've done that to him, which makes sense: they think of foreigners as, well, "foreign", distant, that they don't understand the language, that you don't have to worry about being overheard (you do!). Ruelle said he'd been subjected to the cruel treatment of being referred to as "thằng Joe" merely because the people around him just assumed he didn't speak Vietnamese. On the contrary, it takes a lot more to refer to your own kind who you actually interact and establish long-term relationships with as "thằng", "con" or "nó". I'm pretty sure people who know you well enough won't demean you like that. Personally, I'm now at the point where it's become uncomfortable to call a Western senior "thằng Tây", instead I just refer to them the same way I do to Vietnamese, as "ông Tây". It's just like how easier it is to get acquainted to a Vietnamese by jumping right into incessant queries about their age, their hometown, their zodiac animal, their wife, their children, their job, etc. as opposed to a foreigner: it's a matter of emotional attachment to your own kind who, at the very least, share your language and values. ばかFumiko￥^talk 10:57, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Fumiko Take: Thanks for the reply and the insight. That nó essentially is a marker of emotional detachment from someone or something makes good sense. I'm intrigued by one thing in the second discussion above though ― that many Vietnamese women refer to their foreign husbands as nó without any disrespect meant, more as a matter of course. Can you attest to this use or phenomenon by any chance? Emotional detachment may be at play, but from the discussions above it appears that it need not be a prerequisite, as though such appellation has become customary in the vernacular to some extent, used by speakers without much deliberation. I think we should document these nuances somewhere, though I'm not quite sure where would be appropriate, maybe in an appendix or on Wikipedia. The article states that the word is disrespectful, which is true, though not quite always true, in that it may cause the unaware Westerner to believe it is necessarily a sign of disrespect and pick a fight with the other side (!). Vietnamese pronouns, especially nuances like these, are just way too complicated for non-natives (or thằng Tây, heheh) to handle. Wyang (talk) 13:05, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't speak Vietnamese, so take my spitballing with a shaker of salt, but might this be a job for "typically"/"chiefly"? "...typically in a disrespectful or emotionally detached manner." (Obviously, if a more detailed/explanatory usage note can be drafted, that's even better.) - -sche (discuss) 14:49, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang Pardon me for not reading through that discussion, and even now I've read through some of it I'm still not quite following what's going on over there with all of those question marks. Are those native speakers, or mere Vietnamese nationals? What do they mean by "cu"? Is it cụ, and if it is, who uses "cụ" to refer to complete strangers, let alone foreigners? Either that person must look very, very old and merits the cụ status, or they've met only stiff-mannered Hanoian weirdos. Also, what do they mean by "I notice too that people in my company say 'no' to refer to foreigners but would never use it to refer to Vietnamese groups"? Peers can refer to each other as "nó" too. Colleagues of the same age range may be on a mày-tao basis for that matter, it's completely normal and has nothing to do with nationality. Do they mean that Vietnamese people refer to foreign seniors as "nó" too? I can't speak for international couples, but my mother has referred to my abusive old man as "nó" too (as a matter of fact, so do I and she keeps nagging me for that for some reason). It's weird that that's a noticeable pattern here, so I suspect that these people are nationals and may not be accustomed to the native way of speaking. I mean, is there any evidence that any of their female Vietnamese friends don't do this "nó" thing specifically to their Vietnamese husbands?

Maybe I should make it clear that nó, despite its disrespectful sound, does not mean to be derogatory. "Nó" simply refers to animals (of course, human included) who are considered not deserving respectful title like "anh" or "chị": it doesn't matter if it's your beloved dog, your dear younger sister, or probably your darling husband (I highly doubt that), or your worst enemy whose gut you despise. More often than not, "respect merit" is based on age, and as I noted above, emotional attachment to your own kind, your cohorts, or the people who come from your hometown. It's by no means a "system"; the word "system" would imply something to the effect of, "Hey, every Vietnamese person talks like that only to refer to foreigners", which is not the case. ばかFumiko￥^talk 14:59, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

@Fumiko Take: I think cụ was intended in the discussion, and it was used as a result of either their age or the family hierarchy. After more research, the authors of the four comments cited in the second discussion above were:

1. Bà Hồ Tài Huệ Tâm, Professor of Sino-Vietnamese History at Harvard University;
2. Dr. Tạ Văn Tài, former professor of law and lawyer, former research associate and lecturer at Harvard Law School, currently practicing attorney in Massachusetts, USA;
3. Mr. Kiet Tran, a Swedish Viet Kieu, working for a state company in Vũng Tàu; and
4. Ms. Nhu Miller, a journalist and writer in Berkeley, California.

Professor Hồ Tài Huệ Tâm did mention that while “many Vietnamese women married to Chinese or other foreigners do so as a matter of course”, she “would not dream of” referring to her husband as such, which appears to suggest that there is a perceivable difference as to whether the husband is foreign or not, in the sense that referring to one's Vietnamese husband as nó would not be a “matter of course”, although it is often the case when the husband is foreign, herself being an exception of that trend. Again sorry for the choice of the wording; the word “system” was unsuitable. Another interesting point from the second discussion is:

In my case, the informants are ethnic minority people, and they ALWAYS use the word "nó" for the third person, including their spouse or children.

by Prof. Erik Harms, a social-cultural anthropologist from Yale University, specializing in Southeast Asia (especially Vietnam). It appears the sociolinguistic component of this is hugely intricate, which would make it an excellent thesis or book topic (I would read it :)), but rather difficult to summarise in one or two sentences. @-sche's suggestion of typically / chiefly appeals to me, but the emotionally detached part I find could be better worded. Wyang (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

So I'm not confident that my culture teacher has any more credentials than a Yale anthropologist when it comes to ethnic minorities systems of addressing, but she's from Buon Ma Thuot and properly knows a thing or two about how the ethnic minorities there talk. Apparently in Central Highlands Austronesian languages (perhaps the same goes with highland languages in the cold north too), there aren't really kinship terms like in Vietnamese, and their true pronouns have been commonly misconstrued and mistranslated into Vietnamese as vulgar words like "mày" and "tao". It's like a fun trope that keeps popping up in awful TV sketches where the stereotypical ethnic minority people keep talking like uneducated thugs with their mày tao chi tớ in Vietnamese, along with those communistic đồng chí. I bought that for a long time too, I don't buy it now, but I'm not qualified to say for absolute certainty that that's not the case since I don't have much interest in researching those languages. Anyway, this seems to be a matter of personal experience for these Vietnamese nationals, and unless Sino-Vietnamese Prof. Hồ could write a comprehensive paper on the actual Vietnamese ways of addressing foreigners, I don't think this kind of information should be included. ばかFumiko￥^talk 14:49, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

On another similar note, I've read some teen short stories where girls refer to their boyfriends as hắn in an endearing way. Hà Tĩnh and Nghệ An people also frequently substitute nó with hắn. ばかFumiko￥^talk 14:58, 9 March 2018 (UTC)