Talk:not yet

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not yet

as per not today, not now --Simplus2 11:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

• Keep: it may be useful for translations. Compare the following tables, and you’ll see not yet is rather in a paradigm with still. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

English

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	He is a student.	He is not a student.
Before the change	He is still a student.	He is not a student yet.
After the change	He is already a student.	He is not a student anymore.

French

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Il est étudiant.	Il n’est pas étudiant.
Before the change	Il est encore étudiant.	Il n’est pas encore étudiant.
After the change	Il est déjà étudiant.	Il n’est plus étudiant.

Japanese

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Kare wa gakusei da.	Kare wa gakusei de wa nai.
Before the change	Kare wa mada gakusei da.	Kare wa mada gakusei de wa nai.
After the change	Kare wa mō gakusei da.	Kare wa mō gakusei de wa nai.

• The difference seems to be that not yet is not an antonym of yet. You can't have "Have you done it? Yet." but you can say "Have you done it? Not yet". Mglovesfun (talk) 11:40, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

  In your example, you can see the different senses of perfect: Have you done it? — Not yet and Have you done it? — Never. A simple no cannot show the difference. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Keep: French and other translations have specific constructions for not yet that can't be translated as not + yet Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 21:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Yet is a synonym of still, not yet is not a synonym of not still. What the translations show is that the negation is not as intuitive as we believe it to be. Keep not because of the translations but because the term is truly idiomatic. DAVilla 16:32, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

kept -- Liliana • 17:38, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Paradigms

Just for your interest.

English

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	He is a student.	He is not a student.
Before the change	He is still a student.	He is not a student yet.
After the change	He is already a student.	He is not a student anymore.

French

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Il est étudiant.	Il n’est pas étudiant.
Before the change	Il est encore étudiant.	Il n’est pas encore étudiant.
After the change	Il est déjà étudiant.	Il n’est plus étudiant.

Japanese

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Kare wa gakusei da.	Kare wa gakusei de wa nai.
Before the change	Kare wa mada gakusei da.	Kare wa mada gakusei de wa nai.
After the change	Kare wa mō gakusei da.	Kare wa mō gakusei de wa nai.

Korean

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Geuneun haksaengida.	Geuneun haksaengi anida.
Before the change	Geuneun ajik haksaengida.	Geuneun ajik haksaengi anida.
After the change	Geuneun imi haksaengida.	Geuneun imi haksaengi anida.

— TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Russian

	Affirmative	Negative
No change	Он студе́нт.	Он не студе́нт.
Before the change	Он (всё) ещё студе́нт.	Он ещё/пока́ не студе́нт.
After the change	Он уже́ студе́нт.	Он бо́льше/бо́лее не студе́нт.

--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Could somebody please add both Chinese and Arabic? --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:31, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

RFV discussion: July 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

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not yet

Rfv-sense 2 "almost, not quite". The usex doesn't particularly support this definition, imo. PUC – 18:03, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

cited Kiwima (talk) 01:15, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't get this. I don't see more than one sense of "not yet", nor how the present examples demonstrate two senses. Also, is "not yet" not just SoP from sense #1 at yet anyway? The negative examples there seem indistinguishable. Mihia (talk) 21:12, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The distinction is that in the second sense, there is no implication that the subject will ever become that which it is "not yet". Kiwima (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the degree of expectation/potential of future realisation can vary depending on context, but I can't grasp a point at which "not yet" actually changes to a different sense of "almost, not quite". Negative uses of "yet" with least expectation/potential (verging to none) could be those along the lines of "he has never yet been late for an appointment" which is an example presently at yet, and I think sits there OK along with the note that negative use is "often with an expectation or potential of something happening in the future" (my emphasis). Mihia (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

This sense was added by an editor in the New York City area who has real problems with English adverbs and prepositions. Either they're a non-native speaker or a complete moron (probably both). Some of their comments on my talk page in years past read like complete gibberish. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Mihia. You did a good job looking for citations to support the senses provided, but the fact that the senses themselves seem to be misguided (not sensibly split, and/or SOP) has led to odd results. "members not yet ecstatic" seems to mean they're not, as of yet ecstatic but are expected to be brought around, and "exemplary, acceptable, and not yet acceptable work" sounds aimed at increasing the quality of work produced (which is not, as of yet, acceptable) until it is acceptable, i.e. sense 1. "Not yet black" and "not yet white" seem interchangeable with "yet not" = "nonetheless not". (The sole quote under sense 1, btw, doesn't even use "not yet".) Each of the attested senses (sense 1 and the not-yet-existing "sense 3" supported by the 1858 and 1980 cites) may well be SOP, as Mihia says, and I don't see lemming support for the phrase. - -sche (discuss) 06:07, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Listed at RFD. Mihia (talk) 17:01, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• New sense #3, "yet not: nonetheless not" tagged but not listed here. I am personally unconvinced that the present examples, "That which is blackish is not yet black" and "he is not yet white", demonstrate such a sense. Mihia (talk) 21:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

RFV-resolved Kiwima (talk) 21:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that this is resolved, per my comment above about sense #3, which is now sense #2, i.e. the sense "yet not: nonetheless not". I disagree that this sense exists or that the existing citations show it. I would like to see at least one other trusted editor express the opinion that this sense is OK before we sign this off. Mihia (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the 1858 and 1980 quotes seem to have “not yet” as meaning “not quite” only in the sense of “not completely”, rather than “not as of yet”, as someone who is “not yet white/black” is unlikely to become white/black (unless they’re doing a Michael Jackson!). I’m not sure about “not yet miserable” but possibly we don’t have a full three quotes supporting either new sense 2 (iirc the same as old sense 3) or old sense 2.Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:35, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I moved two of the cites under that sense to that sense because IMO they clearly weren't the RFVed sense, which they had formerly been sorted under, and seemed more like yet ("however") + not, but I can see how "he is not yet white" could just be sense 1, that the French have not at this time come to be regarded as white (that came later). (@Overlordnat, if this is the sense being used rather than "however not", then it surely has to do with how ethnic/national groups have been regarded differently at different times; e.g. in the past "white" was often treated as if it meant "WASP" / in a way some people supposedly excluded the Irish and/or French and/or "swarthy" southern Italians from.) I can see how even "blackish is not yet black" is unclear between 1 and 3(now2). OTOH, "I am warm and not yet miserable" does seem like not + yet ("however"), or what would you interpret it as, Mihia? I do think sense 3(now2) should start with &lit because it does seem like a combination of senses not + yet have separately, though an unusual one... or we could remove it as SOP and sidestep this matter... - -sche (discuss) 20:19, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I believe that what remains is more a question for RFD than for RFV. Kiwima (talk) 23:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

It has become complicated because of the parallel listings and the shifting senses. The RFV listing should be about whether the listed senses exist (which I personally question), and the RFD listing should be about whether the senses that do exist are SoP (or could and should be explained at yet). If the senses that exist are deemed SoP then the RFV would become irrelevant, except if we still wish to keep the entry as a translation hub, in which case we would still need to decide which senses to retain. Mihia (talk) 00:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

@-sche: I have difficulty understanding how "I am warm and not yet miserable" can mean "I am warm and nonetheless not miserable". For one thing, the contrast seems wrong. With "nonetheless not ~" I would expect an adjective compatible with "warm", e.g. "comfortable". I confess that I am not certain how it is to be interpreted. One possibility is that "yet" means "still" (archaic/poetic use). Thus "I am warm and not yet miserable" could mean "I am warm and not still miserable" = "no longer miserable". But I am not certain. I suppose another possibility is that it is a translation that has not quite worked properly. Mihia (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the ‘not yet miserable’ quote is problematic but on second glance I agree with @-sche: that the other two quotes support the current second sense of ‘nevertheless not’ (I admit to confusing myself and everyone else by foolishly commenting on the old second sense ‘not quite’, which is not the current wording).Overlordnat1 (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

In the case of the other two quotes for the sense "nonetheless not", I agree that "That which is blackish is nonetheless not black" makes good sense, while "Guy is French, and in the context that Arthur is operating, he is nonetheless not white" would make more sense to me if "and" was "but". However, regardless of whether these sentences make sense if "nonetheless not" is substituted for "not yet", my brain cannot compute that "not yet" actually means that. I just don't see it. Nevertheless, if you and -sche and Kiwima are all confident that that's what it does mean, then fair enough, I guess we will have to go with the majority opinion. Mihia (talk) 09:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I’m far from confident but I can just about accept that it, barely and arguably, meets CFI requirements (though I would say it doesn’t). Perhaps we should label it with something like ‘rare’ or ‘nonstandard’ before treating not yet as a RFD rather than RFV issue?Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I guess we could make a comparison with "not nonetheless/nevertheless", where the intended meaning is less confusable. I can find a smattering of search results where e.g. "is not nevertheless" is apparently intended to mean "is nevertheless not". If we accept that "is not nevertheless" (without commas around "nevertheless") is correct English, and is not a word-order error for "is nevertheless not", then I suppose logically the same should be true of "not yet", albeit, as I say, the meaning is much more easily confusable. It still seems to me, though, that such a meaning of "not yet" would be SoP, in the same way as "not nevertheless". Mihia (talk) 19:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I've shifted in the other direction from Overlordnat1's comment about coming around on second look to viewing the other two quotes as maybe supporting ~"nevertheless not" : on further inspection I'm now much less certain the Guy/French quote isn't just sense 1. "Guy is French, and in the context that Arthur is operating, he is not yet white." would (still) make sense if interpreted as "Guy is French, and in the context that Arthur is operating [in contrast to the modern day, in which the French are regarded as white], he is not yet [i.e. not at Arthur's time and in Arthur's context, unlike today in our context] white." Perhaps reading more of the book would clarify things. I do think that the sense we're discussing (the former 3, now 2) is just a SOP combination of not and yet (“however”); I think that's how the "blackish...black" quote makes sense, by taking not and yet to be used in various of their usual meanings, SOPly put together. I added it so as to move the cites (but tagged it), but I should probably just have moved the cites to the citations page (and/or sense 1, where applicable); perhaps we should do that now, and drop the sense, replacing it with an &lit. - -sche (discuss) 21:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we should focus now on the RFD which holds that not yet is SoP, or, in the case of the usual meaning, at the very least should and must be explained at yet, rendering not yet redundant (except potentially for translations). Depending on that outcome, we can then address what needs to be done with not yet. Mihia (talk) 19:55, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I think we have gotten off on the wrong track with the "is nevertheless not" definition. The quotes I found fit quite nicely with the original "not quite" definition, and that one is the only one that works with the "not yet miserable" quote. I have therefore restored it. I believe the three quotes I put there support that definition. That which is blackish is not quite black, and will never be black./ to be warm and not quite miserable, and not expecting to become miserable. / The family that is not exactly ecstatic about trying new dishes may find them palatable with condiments, but they are never expected to become ecstatic about them. Kiwima (talk) 21:14, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

RFD discussion: July 2021–January 2022

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not yet

Appears to be covered at yet. Also, the usage that not yet seems intended to deal with is apparently not limited to the phrase "not yet", but can also occur with other negatives such as "nor" and "neither" -- as the "nor ... yet" usage example itself demonstrates. See also Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/English#not_yet. Mihia (talk) 16:59, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

[Oh I see it's under RFV already. But here's what I wrote first:] Comment: sense 2 needs attention. e.g. the 2011 cite could very easily mean work that merely isn't yet acceptable (in time) but will be fine later, with corrections. Equinox ◑ 06:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

I can't fathom sense 2, but even if it survives, I believe it should probably be transferred to yet, even if only, again, for the reason that usage is (presumably) not limited to the phrase "not yet". For example, the idea of "not yet acceptable work" could, in a suitable context, presumably be expressed within a structure such as "... and neither is the work yet acceptable". Mihia (talk) 09:11, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

But: "the number is prime"; Talk:prime number. Equinox ◑ 11:07, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep for translation purposes but the definition needs to be tidied up, the problem with sense 2 seems to stem from the fact that ‘almost’ and ‘not quite’ can mean two subtly different things: ‘not currently’ (essentially the same as sense 1) and ‘not completely’ (which is what sense 2 seems to be driving at). Two of the quotes for sense 2 seem to support this meaning, though arguably they could be clunkily-worded sentences with ‘yet’ meaning ‘however’, and two of them don’t. Perhaps we should wait and see if another example supporting the potential ‘not completely’ meaning can be found and if not then delete sense 2, while keeping sense 1.Overlordnat1 (talk) 17:09, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about the translations, a number of which do not seem word-for-word, so I guess it would become a translation hub if deemed SoP. (For more about whether use of "yet" with negatives is or is not a distinct sense, see Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/July#yet.) Mihia (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

That conversation raising interesting points about the use of ‘yet’ with negatives and it’s use in questions, as opposed to statements (you’d say ‘Are we there yet!’, not ‘Are we there now?’ but answer with ‘We’re there now’ rather than ‘We’re there yet’; alternatively, you might answer with ‘We’re not there yet’, rather than ‘We’re not there now’. Also as stand-alone sentences you’d say ‘We’re there now’ or ‘We’re not there yet’ instead of ‘We’re there yet’ or ‘We’re not there now’ respectively. Another problem is the relationship of the word ‘yet’ to the word ‘however’, especially under negation. Topically, you might say ‘England are a good team yet they are not going to win the Euros’ or ‘England are a good team: however, they are not going to win the Euros’ or even ‘England are a good team; they are not, however, going to win the Euros’ but you wouldn’t say ‘England are a good team; they are not, yet, going to win the Euros’ or ‘England are a good team; they are not yet going to win the Euros’. The approximate but imperfect equivalence between ‘yet’ and ‘now’, or ‘however’, makes it hard to define and ‘not yet’ isn’t simply the equivalent of ‘not+yet’ either: this is because word order comes into play and ‘not yet’ = ‘not now’ or ‘not up to now’ but it’s never equivalent to ‘not, however’ or ‘however, not’; ‘yet…not’ is always equivalent to ‘however…not’ or ‘not, however’ but it’s never equivalent to ‘(up to)now…not’ or ‘not…(up to)now’ or ‘not (up to)now’. How we clearly and concisely explain this on our entries though for yet and not yet though is anyone’s guess!Overlordnat1 (talk) 16:12, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

• I made some changes at yet, so that "In negative or interrogative use, often with an expectation or potential of something happening in the future" is now its own subsense, given the question about whether "not yet" is literally "not" plus a non-negative sense of "yet". To repeat what I said at the Tea Room, in my opinion we cannot avoid explaining negative uses of "yet" at yet, and, once we do, the article not yet is redundant, apart from non-word-for-word translations. Mihia (talk) 11:04, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

You’ve done a thorough job of explaining sense 1 of not yet at yet and sense 2 (‘not yet = yet not’) sounds like nonsense. Also the yet page has translations of the negative senses, so I’m tempted to change my vote to delete but ideally the difference in meaning between things like ‘not/nor…yet’ and ‘yet…not’ would be mentioned in a usage note at the yet articleOverlordnat1 (talk) 13:18, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

@Overlordnat1: Could I ask you to also comment on sense #2 of not yet, i.e. "yet not: nonetheless not", at Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification/English#not_yet, because it is presently tagged as having passed verification. Mihia (talk) 19:15, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Done! Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:42, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Weak keep per the previous RFD discussion. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Keep The negation is only "obvious" to English speakers. DAVilla 12:13, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• Keep as a translation hub. The semantics of 'not yet' are expressed by single word in many languages (e.g. Malay), or by phrases following a different "logic" (e.g. "still not" in German, Tagalog etc., "not already" in Russian etc.). –Austronesier (talk) 09:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep as a translation target. PUC – 13:01, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Keep. Fytcha (talk) 13:09, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Let's keep it. DonnanZ (talk) 09:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Keep as a translation host, as it is otherwise difficult to get the equivalents, e.g. Latin iam nōn (“not yet”) against nōn iam (“no more”). Fay Freak (talk) 06:17, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

RFD-kept --Fytcha (talk) 15:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)