Talk:shabbes
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Svenji
This entry is incorrect. There is no recording of shabbes in Swedish. It is called sabbat, attested since 1526. Svenji (talk) 02:21, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- This entry is fine — just because you're a native speaker doesn't mean you know every word in Swedish. Take a look at Google Books and you can find tons of quotations. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:16, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I know that I am not the encyclopaedia myself. And that we should all be grateful for, too. Although looking at the google books sections in this case might be misleading, almost as much as the entry. All of the (not so many) findings on Google Books are records of olden days, or direct quotations of what Yiddish speakers, and marked with italics, describing them with the terms they use, and none of the time actually in Sweden. This one written about Lithuanians in Norway, Jaffa, Israel, next a list translating foreign words she encountered on her food journey abroad, and some of them are actually in Norwegian. However, I couldn't find one source where it was used out of a quotation from a Yiddish speaker, and such also describing their olden days. Maybe you are also familiar with the SAOB - Swedish Academy's Book of Words? If not, it's a massive dictionary appointed to describe all words, with all its ancient spellings, attested in Swedish since the year 1526, the year modern Swedish marks to have started. It still hasen't reached the last letters of the alphabet, a century after its' start... But, the letter was handles in the 1960's, and it mentions a lot of spellings of sabbat (sabad, sabat, sabatt, sabbath...) but it doesn't not mention shabbes, at all. Of course, this book itself is not an all-seeing eye, but it does mark a point. Both terms have coexisted for a long time in Sweden without doubt, but the root of sabbat was introduced to Swedish ultimately from Latin, and shabbes would have come later, and stayed within the Yiddish language. Therefore, my point is that having an entry of shabbes being a Swedish translation of Sabbath, is if not unattested, then misleading. This is not me saying there are no Yiddish speakers in Sweden, I know my linguistic history better than that, I simply point out that the entry is incorrectly saying this is a Swedish translation of Sabbath. Please show me a resource where it is not in italics, as my Google books search did no such. Svenji (talk) 14:57, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- I would also just like to add that I am not a Yiddish speaker myself, but I hope that you can fill me in if there are any parts that I am not seeing. Svenji (talk) 15:00, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- I easily pulled up three non-italicised uses in Swedish that seem perfectly fine to me on Google Books: 1, 2, 3. The SAOB is obviously a much more thorough work than us, but they have blind spots as well. Why is the idea of a Swedish borrowing from Yiddish so troubling? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- That's cool. Somehow, these sites did not appear (?) in my search before. My concern had nothing to do with what language it was borrowed from, and it makes me sad I have to point that out. It simply was not attested in any of the sources I normally use (including Google Books). I recently started to study Hebrew, thus ended up reading an etymology that didn't make sense to me. Svenji (talk) 12:09, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
- I easily pulled up three non-italicised uses in Swedish that seem perfectly fine to me on Google Books: 1, 2, 3. The SAOB is obviously a much more thorough work than us, but they have blind spots as well. Why is the idea of a Swedish borrowing from Yiddish so troubling? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- I would also just like to add that I am not a Yiddish speaker myself, but I hope that you can fill me in if there are any parts that I am not seeing. Svenji (talk) 15:00, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I know that I am not the encyclopaedia myself. And that we should all be grateful for, too. Although looking at the google books sections in this case might be misleading, almost as much as the entry. All of the (not so many) findings on Google Books are records of olden days, or direct quotations of what Yiddish speakers, and marked with italics, describing them with the terms they use, and none of the time actually in Sweden. This one written about Lithuanians in Norway, Jaffa, Israel, next a list translating foreign words she encountered on her food journey abroad, and some of them are actually in Norwegian. However, I couldn't find one source where it was used out of a quotation from a Yiddish speaker, and such also describing their olden days. Maybe you are also familiar with the SAOB - Swedish Academy's Book of Words? If not, it's a massive dictionary appointed to describe all words, with all its ancient spellings, attested in Swedish since the year 1526, the year modern Swedish marks to have started. It still hasen't reached the last letters of the alphabet, a century after its' start... But, the letter was handles in the 1960's, and it mentions a lot of spellings of sabbat (sabad, sabat, sabatt, sabbath...) but it doesn't not mention shabbes, at all. Of course, this book itself is not an all-seeing eye, but it does mark a point. Both terms have coexisted for a long time in Sweden without doubt, but the root of sabbat was introduced to Swedish ultimately from Latin, and shabbes would have come later, and stayed within the Yiddish language. Therefore, my point is that having an entry of shabbes being a Swedish translation of Sabbath, is if not unattested, then misleading. This is not me saying there are no Yiddish speakers in Sweden, I know my linguistic history better than that, I simply point out that the entry is incorrectly saying this is a Swedish translation of Sabbath. Please show me a resource where it is not in italics, as my Google books search did no such. Svenji (talk) 14:57, 12 December 2019 (UTC)