Talk:shark fin soup

Deletion discussion

Note: see also Talk:vegetable soup#Deletion discussion.

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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shark fin soup

As above. --WikiTiki89 18:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Keep --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. Has cultural significance not obvious from the parts. --Dmol (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, even if it's for one language, in Thai, หูฉลาม (hŏo chà-lăam) means both "shark fin" and "shark fin soup". There's also ฮื่อฉี่ (hêu chèe), a borrowing from Chinese 魚翅／鱼翅 (yúchì), which simply means "shark fin" but in Thai, the extended meaning is "shark fin soup". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

How you say it in Thai has no relevance here since we're not discussing the Thai word. The question here is, does it have a cultural significance when used in English? And can it be attested with cultural significance in English? --WikiTiki89 01:35, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a common argument of deletionists Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/January#Translation_targets who don't seem to be interested in anything but English but Wiktionary is a multilingual dictionary and it's a Chinese specific dish with unusual translations. shark fin itself is more than "a fin of a shark" and is a Chinese delicatessen. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I never said that we should delete shark fin. Just that shark fin soup is no more than soup made from shark fin. --WikiTiki89 02:06, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Shark fin is an ingredient, shark fin soup is a specific dish, which is culturally significant, just like "roast beef" or "Peking duck", even if it's a different culture. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:14, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Is a soup made from shark fin, but not prepared in a traditional way, still considered shark fin soup? --WikiTiki89 02:42, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Template {{&lit}} could be used for that, above the current definition but it's probably unnecessary in this case. A non-traditional shark fin soup could be an attempt or a bad imitation of the traditional, anyway it's probably rare. This sense would be covered by all current translations except for two extended Thai. My friend's father made shark cutlets but I have never tried shark fin soup in Lazarevsky suburb of Sochi where I lived when I was little. There is a small variety of sharks, quite small. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If all paper bags are rectangular, that doesn't mean that the definition of "paper bag" is "rectangular bag made of paper". --WikiTiki89 03:02, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

And your point is? Not all beef that is roasted is called "roast beef" but I may still call it so, even if it's roasted differently ("roast beef" was kept because there's "roastbeef" but it's an example of a culturally significant dish). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Move to RFV. I think this should be moved to RFV, where it would need to be attested as having a meaning beyond just "soup made from shark fin". --WikiTiki89 03:24, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It will pass RFV because the term is citable. The check for idiomaticity and CFI is done here. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It needs to be citable in its non-SOP sense. It's an RFV-sense, not an RFV of the whole term. --WikiTiki89 04:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

"Non-SOP sense" is subjective. A quotation is a quotation. A quote "I like shark fin soup" or similar in an archived book is sufficient to meet attestation. SOP or not is decided here. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:13, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the concept of RFV-sense, you can take it up at the WT:BP. --WikiTiki89 04:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you but I'm not RFD'ing or RFV'ing every second term I come across. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:20, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Luckily we have a whole community so that you don't have to do all the work yourself. --WikiTiki89 04:23, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

You do make a whole community defend entries they create, work on and consider important. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:35, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Better than making them defend what they don't consider important. And based on what you've said, I'm confident the the RFV will pass. --WikiTiki89 04:40, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• Keep it. It's worthy of a Wikipedia entry. Donnanz (talk) 12:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  Looks like you haven't seen WT:WINW or WT:WFW. --WikiTiki89 15:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  The translations are also useful, although not to some users, seemingly. Donnanz (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• By the way, does it actually have a plural as shown in the entry? Donnanz (talk) 12:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  Yes, it has a plural. --WikiTiki89 15:43, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Delete. The conclusion of the RFV was that it is not the name of a specific dish, but any soup of shark fins, consequently a SOP. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 17:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• As I commented about re vegetable soup, food names are a grey area, but I lean towards deleting this entry. I do not think the "cultural significance"/"cultural connotations" of the food itself make its name more idiomatic; there are cultural connotations in some dialects to a black car (=often driven by government agents), pink ribbon (=often worn to show awareness of breast cancer), yellow ribbon (=often displayed to indicate that a loved one is away participating in a war), etc, yet these are all just black cars, pink ribbons, yellow ribbons, etc. - -sche (discuss) 17:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  That's exactly what I've been trying to say. Thank you for clarifying my point. I am not always the best at explaining what I'm thinking, but you seem to have done a better job. --WikiTiki89 18:59, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• Delete this and 魚翅湯/鱼翅汤. Stir-fried tomato and scrambled eggs is another common Chinese dish... Wyang (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I would have specific categories for menu items in other languages, especially for common or famous dishes. Pity you don't want it. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:16, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• Keep (probably outside of CFI), although I am not really sure. I find it interesting that Duden has "Haifischflossensuppe"[1], while it does not have every single compound; it does not have Zirkusschule[2], for instance. An argument could be made that this is a specific dish, but I am unsure about that. In "When processed, they form the basis of a number of favourite Chinese dishes, most notably shark fin soup", there is no article before "shark fin soup"; is this significant? ("In some cultures, shark fin soup is a popular meal ...", and there are other such quotations.) From searching Google books, it seems to be that shark fin soup is a particular soup and that not any soup that I would made from shark fins would be accepted under the term "shark fin soup".

  As for "stir-fried tomato and scrambled eggs", that does not even seem to be attested in Google books: google books:"stir-fried tomato and scrambled eggs".

  An interesting search: shark fin soup,a shark fin soup, the shark fin soup, shark fin soups, shark-fin soup, shark-fin soups at Google Ngram Viewer. When which of the item appear at all; note the existence of the form with "the", but not with "a". --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. Specific dish, useful translations, and completely unhelpful to delete. Does this project not have an equivalent to WP:BROKE? — LlywelynII 12:20, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Kept. bd2412 T 13:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

RFV discussion

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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shark fin soup

Rfv-sense of the particular dish sense, rather than the more general SOP definition of "soup made with shark fin". --WikiTiki89 04:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Cited sense "a Chinese soup made from shark fins, served on special occasions and as a symbol of wealth and prestige". If "wealth and prestige" is not emphasised enough, I can do more. There are nice quotes out there. (An unbiased opinion would be appreciated). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:56, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

None of those demonstrate any difference from the first sense (the &lit sense). --WikiTiki89 05:00, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It's a traditional Chinese soup, often served to wealthy people or used on special occasions, no other sense needs to be verified. Are there any other, non-biased opinions? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not biased, I'm just playing devil's advocate. If anyone, it's you that's biased because you deal a lot with East Asian cultures. --WikiTiki89 05:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Dealing with other cultures usually makes people more knowledgeable and open-minded, not biased.

I've cited as requested, read your opinion. I will respond when other opinions appear, which are not of devil's advocate. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:27, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Dealing with other cultures makes people knowledgeable, but knowledge is what makes people biased. Since I don't know much about the topic, I'm trying to find the truth no matter what the truth is. Since you do know quite a bit about the topic, what you think you know clouds your judgment. --WikiTiki89 05:34, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Whatever, if you insist on discussing people, knowing the set theory and eagerness to rid Wiktionary of compound words may have clouded your judgement about the importance of a definition for "countable set". Your bias is also obvious in this case because you seem to dislike when you're not on top of every discussion and hate to lose even in small matters. Also, I thought you understood that I'm not interested in discussing us, rather than the subject at hand? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of discussions on pages like this is to demonstrate the points of view of everyone who is involved, so that everyone who isn't involved can make an informed judgment. Everyone is biased, but that's why we vote rather than just let one person decide. --WikiTiki89 05:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The second sense appears a little iffy, but I'm concerned someone will see that as mention of the term rather than use of the term. Plus it uses an apostrophe, so we might have to move that sense to "shark's fin soup" for an entry title instead. I'll let others comment more on this discussion. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 06:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• It's totally ridiculous to have an {{&lit}} sense here. The main sense is literal, it just happens to come with various cultural connotations. Just get rid of it, it does absolutely nothing to improve the entry, indeed I suspect it's mainly there to make some kind of point. Ƿidsiþ 07:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  I agree. - -sche (discuss) 17:31, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  I've merged the senses. - -sche (discuss) 17:36, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

• Delete this and 魚翅湯/鱼翅汤. Wyang (talk) 22:34, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

  Vote at WT:RFD#shark fin soup, not here. --WikiTiki89 23:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)