Talk:sudden death

Deletion discussion

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sudden death

sudden + death. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:10, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

The "not caused by violence" part of the definition makes it not SOP (see Sudden cardiac death inter alia). Getting hit by a bus or shot in the head may well cause a [[sudden]] [[death]], but not a [[sudden death]]. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Keep per Angr. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:46, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

• Keep per the above. bd2412 T 17:40, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
• In what context is this definition used? It doesn't correspond to any medical definition. Is it legal? Absent some specific context, the reasoning advanced above seems specious. fast car is not used in reference to railroad cars, but that doesn't make it entry-worthy. DCDuring TALK 18:44, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

General usage. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:52, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Never heard it outside of the sports sense in the US. DCDuring TALK 22:48, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

We were talking about the other definition. FWIW it (the definition you refer to) is used in sports outside the US. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:07, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@Renard Migrant: I know. I am saying that I never heard that sense in the US; sudden infant death and, especially, sudden infant death syndrome yes, sudden death in that sense no. DCDuring TALK 14:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Keep, countable in this sense. Donnanz (talk) 09:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

  How does countability support inclusion? DCDuring TALK 14:22, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

That was added as a note. I have altered the entry. Donnanz (talk) 14:51, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• Delete pending citations. Looking at the Google Books results for "a sudden death" -overtime makes it seem like a non-idiomatic common phrase. Collins does list the sense (the others I looked at didn't), but without the "non-violent" clause. The word "instantaneous" is also troublesome, in that deaths which may last minutes or hours can be considered "sudden" (one book discussed myocardial infarctions as sudden death lasting hours). I would almost suggest that any instantaneous death is violent, although that is because "violent" is subjective. - TheDaveRoss 11:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Suppose we were to clarify that it is not caused by intentional violence? bd2412 T 13:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Based on all of the usage which comes to mind I am still of the opinion that this is a non-idiomatic sense, that is a death which occurs unexpectedly and abruptly. "Instantaneous" and "non-violent" are often attributes of such deaths, but not inherent in the term. I am most interested in seeing some good usage examples where the term is clearly idiomatic, I can't find those. Furthermore the two "new" senses should probably be removed, sense 4 is just a restatement of 3 and sense 5 doesn't make sense to me. - TheDaveRoss 16:03, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• I share the feeling that there is an idiomatic sense here, but I question if violence vs lack of violence is the defining feature of it — my gut feeling is that lack of external cause and abruptness / lack of reasonable anticipation are defining features. Death after a long battle with cancer isn't "[sudden death]", even if at the end it is a "[sudden = quick] [death]", because it could be anticipated. If a person is hit by a stray, accidentally discharged bullet, they suffer a "[sudden] [death]", but it doesn't seem like "[sudden death]" to me — even though (@bd) the death was not caused by intentional violence, it had a clear external cause. If a person dies of SUNDS/dab tsuam, or collapses of a heart attack, that is "[sudden death]", in my mind. - -sche (discuss) 15:09, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
  • This is perhaps in contrast to "dying in one's sleep", which implies a "peaceful" passing? I do think that if this is idiomatic it will be characterized by abruptness, as you mentioned, and perhaps the absence of peacefulness? - TheDaveRoss 16:12, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Another RFD discussion without a single WT:CFI added by anyone. What is the object of this discussion? See google:"sudden death" epidemiology for usage. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:15, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not a discussion about whether the term is used; that would be at WT:RFV. This is a discussion about whether the term is idiomatic, which is very much a WT:CFI issue. The fact that editors do not specifically mention CFI in discussing this merely indicates that these editors are experienced enough to understand that idiomacity is a CFI issue without having it spelled out. bd2412 T 15:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Kept. bd2412 T 19:20, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Early usage

Not as modern as we might imagine. John Camden Hotten's Slang Dictionary (1873) says (referring to gambling by throwing coins, heads or tails): "In tossing, to be decided by the first call is to “GO SUDDEN DEATH,” as distinguished from the longer forms of “best two out of three,” and “first three.”" Equinox ◑ 04:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC)