Talk:taga-Quezon

Sum of Parts?

@TagaSanPedroAko, @Mlgc1998, @Ysrael214, @Houflings Any thoughts on this? @Liray70 I guess we can discuss it here. Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:03, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Liray70: You can research on the criteria of inclusion for Wiktionary. We cannot create entries in Wiktionary where the word is an SOP (sum-of-parts). Even though "taga-Quezon" is a demonym (and so is "taga-Maynila", "taga-Cebu", "taga-Cavite"), void of an idiomatic meaning, it does present as an SOP. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:08, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Liray70 While I also feel like this shouldn't be included in the Wiktionary because it is applicable to any place all over the world, therefore anything that you can consider a place will then therefore have a taga-<entry>, which would cause clutter in the site, and I think in a practical dictionary this may not be included but then again this is an online one, but for the sake of the criteria of inclusion, I think this is the consequence of Tagalog being an agglutinative language where each prefix changes the meaning of the word. Like tag-ulan, where tag- is a prefix saying "time of" and ulan means rain. The only reason why this word has a dash at taga(-)Quezon is because Quezon is primarily a proper noun. Essentially this is the same with tagabukid where taga- is the prefix and bukid is the root. What exactly is a sum-of-parts when the language itself is composed of sum-of-parts words from verbs to adjective to adverb if we consider affixes "parts". It's essentially like the English -ian suffix which produced Persian, Indian, Indonesian, Sumerian, Athenian, Canadian, New Yorkian, Bangkokian etc. Besides taga-Quezon is not a compound to even fall under sum-of-parts. From what I understand from the Wiktionary criteria for inclusion's examples like green-haired is both green and haired can standalone as words but in this case taga- can never stand on its own to be considered as a word. If it were "galing Quezon", where it qualifies as two words that can be decomposed to individual words then I'm going with deletion right away.

However, I'm still mixed for the inclusion of this entry, I don't think it violates sum-of-parts but it's possible that it can violate other rules and I can only think of "Language-specific issues". Ysrael214 (talk) 14:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser isn't taga- a prefix? I'm wondering what the difference of -er in New Yorker is to this case. I guess taga- is a lot more universal as Tagalog's default demonym affix, besides -enyo and -ense, especially in the name of the language itself. In the case of demonym words made via this taga- prefix to most every place in the world, I think if the demonym word for the place is not attested enough, it could show that it's not particularly prominent enough to consider inclusion but for demonym words where they're popular enough to be widely known among Tagalog-speaking communities enough that there's a lot of attestation, it could warrant an entry. The idea that there's so many words that could be constructed from this affix could be said too to many other Tagalog affixes which native Tagalog speakers actively use on even English to construct Taglish verbs. Wiktionary being cluttered with a lot of words is kinda part of Wiktionary's plan as a dictionary website for most all the words in languages it can muster, but of course due to realistic technical capacity issues, the more prominent words could be prioritized to be included first than including more generically constructed words like this, tho Quezon province and other widely known provinces or places in ph seem like the kind of places where their demonyms could be popular enough to be well attested. The difference of this word to those constructed in Taglish using certain Tagalog affixes could be that many Taglish verbs are more ephemeral, so certain demonym words of certain placenames could be as ephemeral as well, but this word for a big province like Quezon where it's one of the core provinces Tagalog is historically native to, idk if we can bet on that. Here's a category filled with -er demonym words in English. Some of them don't seem to be as big named as New Yorker, Londoner, or Manilenyo. Mlgc1998 (talk) 15:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

The inclusion of the "taga-Quezon" is useful to the readers since there are many places named after Quezon, like the two major political units, which are the City of Quezon and the Province of Quezon. The inhabitants of Quezon City are referred to as "taga-QC," while the inhabitants of Quezon Province are referred to as "taga-Quezon." This is also evident in how media outlets use these two words to differentiate these groups.  Liray70 (talk) 12:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: @Mlgc1998: With the affixes in English, they merge with the word so it's a bit less predictable what form it would take, so an entry is needed, even for the demonyms for minor cities in the US. A more comaparable analogy in English would be "ex-teacher". That's why English chose to not include entries for all the possible words that have the prefix "ex-" (the list is found in ex), however in fairness, some entries (for some reason) were allowed to be created. But the issue with "ex-" is still because of SOP, and similar with "taga-", it is SOP.

@Liray70: The main issue here is not the usefulness, main issue is whether it would qualify within the criteria of inclusion (rules set by the community) in Wiktionary. Sometimes, exceptions can be made from consensus of editors for each language. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Adding @Dan Polansky:, @Andrew Sheedy:, @Μετάknowledge:, @Equinox:, @Daniel Carrero: since you all were part of a debate on prefixes and SOP long ago. So basically, in Tagalog, the prefix "taga-" (native/inhabitant of) can be tagged to any place name. Any country, province, city, etc. can have a taga- prefix, and it would mean a person from that place. I think it's SOP. Thoughts? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:49, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser If it's about the presence of "-" and the root word being capitalized, it's as what @Ysrael214 said that there are prefixes too like tag- (wikt:Category:Tagalog terms prefixed with tag-) and compounds that exist like habang-buhay / habambuhay / habangbuhay existing as variant forms (all searchable in Google Books with multiple publications using them) and for "taga-Quezon", this word also has variants like "tagaQuezon" or "taga Quezon" (all searchable in Google Books with multiple publications using them) and its root word is capitalized cuz its a proper noun. Also, English does have a certain amount of entries with the ex- prefix, such as in wikt:Category:English terms prefixed with ex- with an entry like ex-Communist. And, I don't see the idea that if a prefix is very productively used that we should be recording absolutely all the possible words it could possibly make, at least not so much the rarely attested/used ones even if in the future, it's possible for there to be a ton more words that could be constructed with the logic of a certain very productive affix. Unproductive affixes like hing- or other more common affixes like -an could also produce a lot of possible words following the logic of the affix, but we wouldn't need to record all the possible words they could make if many of them are ephemeral or not currently widely known enough at least in mainstream use among Tagalophone society or regional communities. Mlgc1998 (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I think taga- is an acceptable prefix for a demonym, but it should not apply as a demonym to everyone. There should be a set of limitations or tests if that word is considered a demonym in a place. It is like a noun or a name for a cultural group or tribe. I think most places will not consider it their demonym if it is applied to everyone.  In the case of Quezon, there were only two prominent demonyms used both by the masses and the local officials: the English "Quezonian" and the Tagalog "Taga-Quezon."  Liray70 (talk) 09:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The thing here is that SOP applies to "ex-", but they made exceptions for translation hubs, it seems (English entries so people can see the translation in other languages). So the question now (since translation hubs don't apply to Tagalog), is if "taga-" + places is an SOP. I say it is. Because it literally is a sum of the meaning of two compounds. So I guess the question now is, are there arguments against the idea that "taga-" + place is an SOP? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser two compounds? this is just one word, taga- is a prefix that doesn't stand by itself, just like most other affixes, and then Quezon being the proper noun placename serving as the root. What would be the difference of this as opposed to other affixed words? would those be literally SOP too? There's so many other affixed words in Tagalog and other languages, besides English, without translation hubs. Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I'm going with @Mlgc1998's idea that the usage should have attestation to show relevance and therefore limit the taga- entries. I mean, I think ex-president is so used that it's there. Also, I don't get it, ex-teacher exists as an entry though. So do ex-member, ex-boyfriend and ex-girlfriend. We have to define first what qualifies as "parts" in "sum-of-parts". I get the idiom part but normally they exist as separate compounded words in hyphen, not as affixes (or as long as the meaning changed from the original words and not as a simple descriptor). Ysrael214 (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 What I'm getting is the words should be broken down to the most simple words if the meaning does not change when broken down. The first example in the criterion is "this is a door" which can be broken down to "this" "is" "a" "door" since each of those words do not follow a "<this/that/those> <is/are> <a/an> <object>" pattern. However, taga- only follows a "taga-<place>" pattern. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 I just saw this: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2022/September § Including hyphenated prefixed words as single words. Let's look at this first. Ysrael214 (talk) 14:55, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Not all words with the taga- prefix in a place are considered demonyms. If it is a demonym, it means something different. I think it is an exception to SOP.  Liray70 (talk) 11:03, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I mean I'm flattered, but, for the future, please do not tag me on discussions in a language that I don't speak! I am useless here. Equinox ◑ 03:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)