Template talk:hu-possuff

Categorization of nouns with this usage

@Panda10 What could be the name of the category where nouns with this template are added? Something like "Hungarian nouns with senses that are (chiefly) used with possessive suffixes" (with the adverb being an optional parameter, possibly resulting in two categories) but I'm not sure if there is no better name. See szín as an example. It's supposed to be a subcategory of Category:Hungarian irregular nouns.

It's similar to but may still be distinct from the case of sárgája, fehérje or eleje that don't even use the original base form in their current sense, or from báty, húg etc. that are just less common in Hungarian without possessive suffixes. Adam78 (talk) 13:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 See also a search for személyragos in A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára. Not all results are relevant here (e.g. pronominal adverbs) but many are. Adam78 (talk) 13:11, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 We should keep it short if possible. Variations:

• Hungarian nouns used with possessive suffixes
• Hungarian irregular nouns with possessive suffixes
• Hungarian lemmas with possessive suffixes

A longer explanation can be given at the top of the category. It would also be helpful to provide an explanation why sárgája, fehérje etc. do not belong here. Panda10 (talk) 17:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 Thank you for the suggestions. I think the point is not that they are used with possessive suffixes (since almost every noun is used that way) but they are not (or rarely) used (in a given sense at least) without possessive suffixes. (It also implies that another possessive suffix cannot be added to their end, as opposed to fehérjéje, whose stem is entirely lexicalized together with its original suffix, that's why it can get another possessive; sárgája and eleje are not like this, so they may be more like szín and hence included together with the latter.) In a way, they are indeclinable or defective, cf. Category:Hungarian defective nouns; maybe this should be its immediate parent category. (Fehérje is not defective in this sense.) The term noun should be included in the name since basically only nouns can get possessive suffixes (aside from the partitive genitive of some pronouns and adjective forms).

Fia and lánya are two more examples for how the possessive-suffixed forms can distinguish senses ("son" and "daughter" as opposed to "boy" and "girl"). The original example of szín also shows how this feature may be limited to given particular senses of a noun, in line with other category names like "Hungarian terms with rare/archaic/informal/etc. senses". I admit that the resulting name may sound overly pedantic or complicated. Adam78 (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Adam78 I see. How about these:

• Hungarian nouns lexicalized with possessive suffixes
• Hungarian noun senses lexicalized with possessive suffixes
• Hungarian noun senses formed with possessive suffixes

Even if the category name is not perfect, a longer explanation will definitely help the users. Panda10 (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

@Panda10 Fehérjéje was intended as a counter-example; the other nouns are not lexicalized with the possessive suffix (that's why they cannot have an additional possessive suffix like *elejéje). Thus only the name "Hungarian noun senses formed with possessive suffixes" looks viable out of these three. Let's give it some time to think it over in case something else comes up. Maybe we could also look up how they're defined in Magyar grammatika, maybe it gives us some more hint and helps us avoid misnomers. Thank you again! Adam78 (talk) 19:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)