Wiktionary:Grease pit/2022/June

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← May 2022 · June 2022 · July 2022 → · (current)

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The site thinks that my edits are harmful

I'm just manually adding inflected forms, I won't harm this site --ConjugationMan (talk) 13:39, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

It stopped complaining, which is useful for me (I only edit in good faith) --ConjugationMan (talk) 14:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

The filter that you triggered is a safety valve: vandals tend to create new accounts, then do as much damage as possible before they're discovered and blocked. Most new editors don't edit fast enough to set this off, so it's only rarely a problem. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

url2 in Template:quote-journal

Hey all- I tried to use url2 in quote-journal, and the parameter journal2= did not display (everything else worked) see: diff. Let me know if I'm doing it wrong. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:47, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative As you know, Template:quote-journal takes the parameters journal and title. But under the hood, these are passed to Module:quote as title and chapter, respectively. So Module:quote doesn't know anything about the parameter journal, and as a result it doesn't look for journal2 (the code a("journal") does not appear in the module's source). As a workaround, I changed the citation to use title2 and chapter2 instead: diff. If anyone wants to edit the module code to handle this situation properly, that would be even better. 70.172.194.25 00:05, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

This workaround works; not sure if there was a theory-based rationale for not having journal2. Might be good to have it. The situation in question is the oldest known cites for the word on Wiktionary, so it does seem important/valuable to move beyond work-around level (if this holds as the oldest known usage, this is valuable cultural heritage that can ring out throughout the internet; undignified to have a work-around in it). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the reason is that it was the easiest way to let all the quote templates customize their labels for the individual work (chapter) and containing work (title). For example:

• {{quote-newsgroup}} uses group for title
• {{quote-av}} uses episode for chapter
• {{quote-web}} has blog and site for title
• {{quote-journal}} supports journal, periodical, magazine, and newspaper.

Anyway, the displayed "workaround" output is exactly as it should be; only the parameter names are different. 70.172.194.25 00:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

How about a Finnish impersonal verb conjugation template?

I've already made one myself, as a subpage of my userpage. (It's here.) The template has full conjugation for the finite verb forms, and automatically adds transcluding pages into the impersonal verb category.

Here is an example of the template: [Redacted]

Let me know what y'all think! :) --ConjugationMan (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I think this can be automated with a Lua module, but other than that it's a sound idea. I don't know whether we should have it in all entries that have monopersonal meanings, even if they also have personal ones (like pelottaa), or only to entries that solely have monopersonal meanings (like täytyä). — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 20:03, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Another issue is that sometimes the "subject" is in genitive case (täytyä), other times in partitive (pelottaa), sometimes even in other cases (adessive case for olla (“to have”))... — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 21:01, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

@ConjugationMan: I commented out your template because its module invocation returns nothing but an error. Feel free to restore it when you have the module working. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Ostensibly Lua-Free Declension Tables with Omissions

My preferred way of producing inflection tables is to add manual overrides to a Lua module that generates a regular inflection table. However, the Indian Indic community seems to prefer 'simple' templates that use nothing more(?) complicated than the parser extensions. @AryamanA, Svartava, Kutchkutch, Bhagadatta. To that end I have modified {{pmh-decl-noun-irregular}} to {{psu-decl-noun-irregular}} to have the following features:

1. When the output table is displayed when viewing the template page, the contents of each cell is displayed in a form such as {{{7}}}.
2. When a value is specified for a cell, it is displayed using {{l-self}}, as is common practice in inflection tables.
3. If no value is specified for a cell, it is displayed as an em dash. The nature of Prakrit (e.g. the absence of dative plurals) and the incompleteness(!) of the attestation may lead to gaps in the table.

I'm wondering if I have missed some tricks in my coding. If so, could someone please advise me what they are? I do want the code to be maintainable by others.

I have lengthy coding for a single cell such as:

|{{#if:{{{7|<noinclude>f</noinclude>}}}|{{l-self|inc-pra|{{{7}}}}}|—}}

This may make it difficult to elaborate the display, e.g. to better display alternative forms. Currently I would use for a parameter something like |7=पुत्तण ''or '' पुत्तणं, which yields:

पुत्तेण or  पुत्तणं (putteṇa or  puttaṇaṃ)

That's not the best of formats, neither for display nor for input. (I feel a kinder input would be |inss1=पुत्तण|inss2=पुत्तणं.)

Is there some way of abbreviating <noinclude>f</noinclude>? --RichardW57 (talk) 20:44, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Lua memory errors again

@Surjection, Chuck Entz, Erutuon Suddenly we are back to the old situation with 26 pages with memory errors. What happened? Something must have changed around May 30 or May 31, when I first saw this. It was not a change I made. Maybe someone added a bunch more languages? I was able to eliminate the memory errors on maybe 8 pages using {{multitrans}}, but the remainder can't be fixed this way. Maybe we should resurrect the old ideas of splitting some of the Module:languages/data3 submodules, and/or implementing a generalization of {{multitrans}} that handles {{l}}, {{m}}, {{head}} and other common templates. Benwing2 (talk) 23:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 This really started earlier: I first noticed it May 23, when there were suddenly 17 entries in CAT:E. @Surjection managed to clear those, but now they're back- with a few friends. When I looked at the transclusion list for bar on the 23rd, the there were only a few modules with changes in the previous few days. We can ignore your edit to a French module because it's not transcluded in the Chinese-character entries, and @Fish bowl also edited one of the CJK modules, but it didn't seem like the kind of thing that would radically change memory usage. There were substantial additions to Module:zh/data/st and Module:zh/data/ts- substantial, percentagewise, but those modules are still only about 90k in file size. I don't know if that would make a difference if multiplied by the number of transclusions in the Chinese-character entries (every link in the Chinese entry seems to use them). I asked @Justinrleung and he saw nothing wrong with them.

I can't use the "what changed" technique anymore because Surjection went through a lot of the Chinese modules on May 27 and worked on memory-related aspects of the code. It wouldn't hurt to check whether there were any problems with those edits, just to be safe, but I have no reason to believe they did anything but help.

I should mention that right now we're going through a minor wave of false positives that clear with a null edit, so I think someone made and quickly corrected an error in some widely-transcluded module. There's still a core of 28 memory errors once those are cleared.

As for your suggestions: such techniques are hard to apply to the Chinese-character entries due to the sheer number of data modules transcluded, and the other entries have dozens of language sections that link to almost everything at least once. Beyond that, this is all over my head. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:33, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that copying over Module:cmn-pron/sandbox to Module:cmn-pron would help as a stopgap measure, saving about 1,500,000 bytes per invocation of {{zh-pron}}. (I divided Module:zh/data/cmn-hom into /1, ... /4 subpages. I figure nobody minds this much, probably, as long as it works.). 70.172.194.25 01:57, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz I made a suggestion awhile ago to compress some of the Chinese data modules into one big string rather than a bunch of tables, and index into the string appropriately. I think this would make a big difference for the bigger data modules but requires some effort. Let me try the IP's suggestion and see what happens. Benwing2 (talk) 02:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and did that. It seems to have helped on 日 "rì" but not on 新 "xīn" or 我 "wǒ". Benwing2 (talk) 02:37, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

After some null edits and assorted minor tinkering (also reverting to fix one caused by a rather strange misuse of {{ja-pos}}), we're down to 4 entries as opposed to 28 as of my last post. I would say that's a definite improvement. Even those 4 now get all the way to the bottom of the page before they run out of memory. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:07, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Translations of staticity

• Greek: στατικότητα f (statikótita)

https://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/corpora/corpora/search.html?lq=%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%84%CE%B1

— This unsigned comment was added by 2a02:587:4f09:e800:7944:d643:e7ec:320d (talk) at 17:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC).

To confused souls that stumble upon this, please head to Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2022/May#Disallowing_page_creations_as_well_as_edits_with_abuse_filters. --kc_kennylau (talk) 01:11, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Quotations from Anthologies and Samplers

When I started adding Pali quotations to Wiktionary, I thought the details in {{quote-web}} were to help others find the quotation. Consequently, when quoting what, for my purposes, are anthologies, it looked as though the author of the anthology were the the author of the quotation. I am now trying to fix this problem. I have a few problems, though.

1) Is there an alternative to triggering of |location2=. That doesn't really feel suitable for web documents, though it doesn't look too bad in ᨷᩤᨭᩥᨾᩮᩣᨠ᩠ᨡ (pāṭimokkha), which uses quotation template {{RQ:pi:N3207}}. What is a problem is the word 'republished as'. If the new work is an anthology, it may neither republish the whole work nor essential consist of it. The simplest catch-all replacement I can think of is '(partly) republished in'.

2) The author keywords for the anthology only allow for one author, though they do allow for an author link.

3) Is the date of a work the date it was composed, first written down, or when the spelling was decided? A concrete example I have in mind is a single sutta composed in India, first written down in Sri Lanka a few generations later, and typeset in Burma (or just possibly Thailand) over a millennium and a half later, when glyph choices (subsequently confirmed as character choices) that didn't exist a thousand years earlier had to be made, and a picture of the printed text then published in a book, possibly a few decades later. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:57, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

HotCat Wiktionary fork testing

There have long been plans to fork HotCat to better support English Wiktionary templates (such as {{C}}). I've now started work on such a fork and would like more testers to check whether the changes are working correctly. Automatic saving is disabled to let users review markup and such changes which is important for ensuring the gadget works correctly. Once sufficiently tested, the en.wiktionary gadget will be migrated over.

To test this version of HotCat, first go to Special:Preferences, Gadgets and disable HotCat. Then go to your common.js and add importScript("User:Surjection/HotCat.js"); into your list of imports. If you do not have a common.js, it should be enough to place that line on the page and nothing else. (To revert, remove the line from your common.js, possibly leaving it empty, and then re-enable HotCat from Gadgets under your preferences.) — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 12:44, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Having tested it on many different kinds of pages (with many/singular L2's) and adding either singular or multiple categories, it works as expected. Vininn126 (talk) 11:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Surjection Thank you for this. It looks like your version uses {{C}} and {{cln}}, which is also what my templatize_categories.py script standardizes on; this is good. You should add a couple more aliases to the list of topical category templates; the full list I currently have is {{C}}, {{c}}, {{top}}, {{topic}}, {{topics}} and {{catlangcode}}. It's unfortunate we have so many aliases; I would eliminate some of them but they all seem to be used on more than 1000 pages, which is usually my threshold for when a template should be kept and deprecated vs. just deleted. Maybe though we should still consider deprecating some of them, esp. {{catlangcode}}, which is long and has a non-obvious name. BTW there's a third set of category templates, which is {{categorize}}/{{cat}}; these are for categories not preceded by a language name or code, e.g. Category:Verlan; it still can be useful to write e.g. {{cat|fr|Verlan}} instead of just a raw category link so that the sort code gets generated correctly. Benwing2 (talk) 21:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

D'oh. I tried getting all of the aliases, but I suppose I missed some. I do know about {{categorize}}, but the issue is that it's harder to check what language those categories are for (in case one wants to add them). I think the gadget would have to fetch the category data from a Lua module, or at least in the case of Category:Verlan, fetch the category page and check which categories it belongs to. It might be doable, but I don't know if it's possible to make the logic entirely foolproof. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 05:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Category:Melbourne, Category:zh:Melbourne

If we really want these, can someone update the appropriate template(s)/module(s) to get {{auto cat}} to work with this? User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 11:12, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Whitelist the Twitter search page

It's currently not possible to link to a Twitter search (only to individual tweets) because the twitter search page is globally spam-blacklisted. Can we MediaWiki:Spam-whitelist (cf w:MediaWiki:Spam-whitelist) it? I've run into the block a few times, and it came up again at Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English#waffle_stomp. (It's possible to whitelist things for use only on specific pages, but whitelisting it for use only on WT:RFVE and WT:RFVN would mean the threads would fail to be archivable; if we could whitelist it for use on any Wiktionary: or Talk: namespaces, that should cover anywhere it'd be needed. Alternatively, generally whitelist it and use an edit filter to block new users from adding links to it if it actually becomes a problem that people spam links to it.) - -sche (discuss) 04:27, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't even see how the Twitter search page is any more abusable by spammers than linking to Twitter accounts or individual Tweets. There must be something I'm missing. 98.170.164.88 04:39, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

It does seem weird that the search page is blocked, though I suppose if we were blocking particular accounts or tweets it could be used to link to them anyway via search query. - TheDaveRoss 12:12, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't want to give anyone BEANS-y ideas but, my guess is that the rationale is partly, as you say, the ability to evade tweet-/account-specific blocks, and partly that if a spammer tweets a link to their malware / phishing site / whatever, either the specific site or the specific tweet can be taken down, but if they link to a twitter search for some unique string, they can create tweets linking to their sites and using that string, and whenever one tweet or site gets taken down, create another tweet. (Ah, I see it's being discussed here, prior discussion here.) - -sche (discuss) 19:29, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

(But I think we should try whitelisting it, and see if we actually get spammed or not — I doubt it, we don't seem to be getting spammed with any other links to Twitter — at which point we could add an edit filter or un-whitelist it if necessary.) - -sche (discuss) 00:09, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and whitelisted it. If this unexpectedly causes a flood of twitter search spam, we can evaluate whether to block new users from adding such links with an edit filter and blocks (if it's just spambots from new accounts) or whether to un-whitelist it. - -sche (discuss) 15:44, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Test of whitelisting. - TheDaveRoss 17:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Hinduphobia

i wanted to edit some details in a blank page of hinduphobia , but the automatic word recognition system of wikipedia finds some words inappropriate , ex-racist , killing , plaese review it and help Uksinghrana (talk) 00:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

(Looking at the AbuseLog, I see that this user added a long text to Hindu Phobia which was appropriately deleted, then got some automatic warnings for bad edits to Hinduphobia, which Fytcha appropriated reverted. I'm not seeing any edits which were actually stopped by edit filters, let alone incorrectly stopped. No objections if someone wants to just roll this whole section back.) - -sche (discuss) 20:48, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Archives: recent on top?

Would you consider reversing the sequence of years at archives (the right hand contents) placing the more recent on top? Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 20:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Templates movedto and movedfrom

I don't know why I've never noticed this, but the parameters are reversed, with |1= as the display parameter when there are two parameters. I'm not sure how many of the 528 (combined) transclusions use the second parameter, but it would be a good idea to think this through before fixing things Chuck Entz (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Singulatives

Should {{singulative of}} add the page to a relevant category, such as Category:English singulatives (which currently holds but one entry)? This is already the case with {{clipping of}}, {{misspelling of}} and probably some other templates too. brittletheories (talk) 11:05, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Probably. I don't see why not. - -sche (discuss) 15:39, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Μάγια

The entry for μάγια seems to be a bit confused; it gives only one definition, which it classes as a feminine noun meaning "spell (magic and witchcraft)". As the Greek Wiktionary makes clear, though, of the three definitions given there, the feminine singular noun is the name of a type of dance; the two definitions concerning magic, witchcraft, etc., involve μάγια as a neuter noun always used in the plural. I don't have the expertise (yet) to make the requisite changes. Could someone either make them, or help me to learn? Thanks. --Bibliosporias (talk) 16:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Bibliosporias for spotting the mistake: it is neuter (n). I can add the extra definitions as in el:μάγια: the language, and the leotard worn by dancers. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 09:24, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks! --Bibliosporias (talk) 09:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Armenian entries that lack a pronunciation

On English Wiktionary, there are around 16K Armenian lemmas. Most of them have a pronunciation entry like գրել. It seems there's 15k such entries with a pronunciation. So at least 1K words lack a pronunciation like ակն ընդ ական. Is there a way retrieve a list of Armenian entries that lack a pronunciation? If so, I can then manually add pronunciations to the leftovers. Hovsepig (talk) 09:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Here you go! Vininn126 (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Transliteration Systems in Etymologies 2

@Fish bowl, RichardW57m, Theknightwho, This, that and the other, 70.172.194.25 & all: I would like to add two transliteration systems to Template:borrowed (or similar) which would "fall under" Mandarin (cmn): one called "wg" (or similar) (Wade-Giles) and one called "hp" (or similar) (Hanyu Pinyin). See the last three posts in Talk:Kuomintang for discussion of this issue. See the first half of the Etymology section of 'Xizhi' for a potential example of what this might look like if implemented: "From the Hanyu Pinyin romanization of Mandarin […] ". On the Xizhi page, you would hypothetically write "From the {{bor|en|hp|-}}" and produce that text (or similar), and all the attendant categorization, etc that cmn would normally produce.
(NOTE: As can be seen from the discussion at Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2022/May#Transliteration_Systems_in_Etymologies, this is a complex issue that leads into many fun questions that can be talked about endlessly around the campfire, which is EXACTLY how NOTHING got done the first time. There are complex issues that absolutely cannot be solved ahead of time. The only way forward is for "something" to be created. Once "something" is created (regardless of how ugly, stupid, wrong, un-academic, whatever), I will implement it immediately. That will get the attention of the big boys, who will want to comment. At that point, the long, meaningful discussions can lead to wonderful tweaking and modulation of the final form. But for now, please don't discuss new categories, different transliteration schemes, etc. yet. All I'd like to see is a functional system where "Hanyu Pinyin" and/or "Wade-Giles" appears automatically. God bless.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to add that I support this.

What needs adding based on the previous discussion

In Module:etymology languages/data:

m["pinyin"] = {

canonicalName = "Hanyu Pinyin",

aliases = {"Pinyin"},

parent = "cmn",

wikidata_item = 42222,

}

m["wadegile"] = {

canonicalName = "Wade–Giles",

aliases = {"Wade-Giles", "Wade Giles"},

parent = "cmn",

wikidata_item = 208442,

}

Theknightwho (talk) 16:21, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Use the standard names for the written lects, cmn-pinyin and cmn-wadegile. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I've updated to simply pinyin and wadegile so as to match IANA. Theknightwho (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Also suggesting we add Tongyong Pinyin, because Category:English terms derived from Tongyong Pinyin has 35 terms in it.

m["tongyong"] = {

canonicalName = "Tongyong Pinyin",

parent = "cmn",

wikidata_item = 700739,

}

Theknightwho (talk) 15:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Dropping the 'cmn-' is in violation of IANA. The relevant format is <language>-<variant>. The feedback I got was that the 'standard names' were acceptable, but some systems might not properly understand it if we didn't lay it on with a trowel by prefixing 'zh-', though 'cmn' is supposed to be preferred to 'zh-cmn', and suffixing '-Latn', which we don't do, because we pass our (amplified) script identification separately. --RichardW57m (talk) 16:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Checking IANA's list and what they list as the prefix, the correct codes would be zh-Latn-pinyin, zh-Latn-wadegile and zh-Latn-tongyong. A Google search confirms that that is what is in general use. Theknightwho (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@TheKnightWho: Sorry, yes, the '-Latn' would be an insert rather than a suffix. I asked about the need for 'zh-' at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-languages/q0Kw4JINn7lWCjsbNajh82nztAI/ and was told it was not necessary. --RichardW57 (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a purely Wiktionary-internal thing, it doesn't matter if "some systems might not properly understand it". I'd prefer something with a language code at the beginning (cmn-pinyin, cmn-wadegile; "zh" is wrong as these are for Mandarin only, and "-Latn" is superfluous for our purposes). But that's neither here nor there. Let's hope an admin will see this discussion this time! This, that and the other (talk) 02:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Template:ja-romanization of fails to recognize archaic/retrospective kana

Currently, Template:ja-romanization of recognizes only the kana in the main Hiragana and Katakana Unicode blocks; the archaic or retrospective kana 𛀀, 𛀁, 𛄡, 𛄠, 𛀆, 𛄢, and 𛄟 (in the Kana Supplement and Kana Extended-A blocks), if present in the kana source of a romanization, cause the template to throw up a big ugly red "(link to non-kana entry)" error message, as can (for instance) currently be seen at ye#Japanese. Could someone please add these seven kana to the characters that Template:ja-romanization of accepts without throwing an error message? Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 20:22, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Whoop whoop pull up: I just added those specific glyphs to the sanity check. Does it work now? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr Looking at ye#Japanese, it does indeed seem that that did the trick. Thanx! Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 21:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

contextuality

Translations

defined within a context

• Greek: συγκειμενότητα f (sygkeimenótita), πλαισιότητα f (plaisiótita), πλαισιακότητα f (plaisiakótita)
• (deprecated template usage) {{trans-mid}}

2A02:2149:8B65:2C00:5CCF:6450:CD0E:4A2B 02:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Have you considered adding this content directly to the entry itself? This, that and the other (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@This, that and the other: They have, but fortunately there's an abuse filter that stops them. This is the the person I was referring to here. You have no idea how much utter bilge they've had deleted in rfv over the years. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:03, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Lua access to Wikidata Lexeme has been enabled on all Wikimedia projects from June 21

Check out d:Wikidata_talk:Lexicographical_data#You_can_now_reuse_Wikidata_Lexemes_on_all_wikis. So, now we can call lexemes, forms, senses, etc., from Wikidata Lexemes using Lua. Thanks. Vis M (talk) 11:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Oddities in behavior of Template:rfe

I just added an {{rfe}} over at Hungarian szerszám:

• {{rfe|hu|Could someone explain the sense development? Unclear how ''tool'' + ''number'' = ''tool''.}}

The expected behavior is for argument 1 to be the lang code, and for argument 2 to be a description or note, which should display. The lang code appears to be correctly handled, and the page is added to the language-appropriate category. However, the note is no longer appearing for me.

Playing around, I noticed that any string added as argument 3 is treated as the description. But argument 3 isn't accounted for anywhere in the wikicode...

This template references a couple others, but none of these use Lua. None have been edited all that recently (stable for a few weeks at any rate). Can anyone tell what's going on here? Was there a tweak to the underlying MW infrastructure that has gone a bit funny? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:46, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr: The equals sign is disruptive because MediaWiki is treating it as the thing used to define parameters, so you have to manually write the unnumbered parameter as N=, or use {{=}}. —Fish bowl (talk) 20:49, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, FFS. Thank you! I (mis-)remembered that that only happened if there was a single space-less string right before the equals sign. <sigh.> Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Borrowings from ancestor

Is it possible to make a filter that is triggered when you try adding a {{borrowed}} template with a mother and daughter in it? I can only think of a handful (Sanskrit, Latin, Greek) languages where this would be annoying, and a whole lot of languages where this'd be useful. It's probably not a good idea to make an error out of this because of things like Algiz or Dyeus, but a filter might be nice to at least diminish the amount of mistakes. Thadh (talk) 11:58, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't those languages be using {{learned borrowing}} anyway? Vininn126 (talk) 12:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Not always. Old French bulle (bull) looks like a word naturally acquired from Latin speakers, rather than one deliberately introduced. That's on top of the fact that using 'learned borrowing' contrary to normal usage is confusing. I think some people are using it as a semantic loan of tatsama.

What would be more useful, though much harder, would be to check the first parameter against the L2 heading. (Do we already have a bot that does this in slow time?) I fear this immediate check might be a phabrication request. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

The "slow time" approach (i.e. WT:TODO) is the right way to address this problem. We already have WT:Todo/Incorrect derivation templates and WT:Todo/Template language code doesn't match header for the "first parameter doesn't match L2 heading" issue. I could look at coding up a report that displays instances of borrowing from parents to children (obviously excluding languages like Latin as mentioned already). This, that and the other (talk) 02:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh, RichardW57m User:This, that and the other/terms borrowed from ancestor This, that and the other (talk) 05:20, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it correct that this doesn't include borrowings from proto-languages? Thadh (talk) 08:16, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh It does include a couple. If you can point to any others (noting that my script only looks at {{bor}} and {{bor+}}, not {{lbor}}) then I'll check where my script went wrong! This, that and the other (talk) 11:58, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah I see, sorry, I must have missed those. Thadh (talk) 15:21, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

No. Abuse filters cannot access our language data. The best we can do is hardcode particular pairs. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 16:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

In that case, what about triggering a module error except for specific languages? I'm guessing learned borrowings from Proto-Yukagir or Proto-Kuki-Chin aren't a thing anyway, so we could make a list of parent languages (or, perhaps, extinct parent languages) that would be ignored (PIE, PG, Latin, Dutch, French, English, Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Malay... Are there many more of these?). Or is that what you meant with "hardcore particular pairs"? Thadh (talk) 18:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good approach either. What I meant by "hardcoding particular pairs" is that we can have it block certain languages or language pairs from being used, but not all languages that have a parent-child relationship according to our language data. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 08:03, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we have too many mother/daughter relations for that to be generally useful. At best this might be a good idea for classical languages (Latin, Sanskrit, Ancient Greek), say, to bar borrowings from certain stages (for instance Vulgar Latin). Thadh (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: What are you trying to prevent in respect of Latin and Vulgar Latin? Sanskrit borrowed from Prakrit, and Prakrits borrowed from Sanskrit, so I'm confused. (Of course, Classical Sanskrit isn't truly the ancestor of any attested Prakrit, and I have my doubts about Vedic Sanskrit.) --RichardW57m (talk) 08:54, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@RichardW57m: Romance languages cannot borrow from Vulgar Latin specifically, since it's their natural ancestor. So, we could bar people from writing that by accident. Thadh (talk) 10:17, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@Thadh: Thank you. Is this a likely error? I am not sure such a borrowing is impossible. While they may not have been spoken side-by-side, such a transfer might occur via writing. Highly unlikely, but not impossible. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:27, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

This is one of those obvious things, like proto-languages not being attested, that we have to ignore every once in a while. Language transitions tend to be rather vague, and there's nothing that inherently stops someone from using words they heard their grandparents speak. There may very well be cases where it's impossible for terms from one stage of a language to be borrowed from an earlier one- but things like "Vulgar Latin" and "Old French" are abstractions in the minds of scholars, and reality is seldom tidy. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:14, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Even if Vulgar Latin were attested in writing (which it virtually isn't), borrowings from written records are learned borrowings, not proper borrowings. Thadh (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

[by Sarri.greek:] If it is of any interest, in greek lexicography (for Modern Greek) the internal borrowings are called^{({{R:DSMG}} introduction)} "diachronic learned borrowings". A mother-daughter sequence can be either oral, i.e inherited, or a learned borrowing (reviving a word or lexical element from texts of past periods). For Modern Greek, such "internal lbors" are a huge category (estimated some thousands of words). The inherited words are less.

But. A secondary matter... I find confusing the definition offered under the categories of 'borrowed terms'/'learned borrowings' How does en.wiktionary define loanword/borrowed terms versus other 'borrowings'?

• e.g. Category:Borrowed terms by language offers the definition «...terms that are loanwords, i.e. words that were directly incorporated from another language.» What does directly mean? Orally, acoustically, from speaker to speaker through language (foreign) contact. If ancestral, then it is inherited.
• e.g. Category:Learned borrowings by language «... terms that are learned loanwords, that is, words that were directly incorporated from another language instead of through normal language contact.» What does directly mean? On the contrary, they are borrowed indirectly, because they are activated by choice i.e. learnedly.

So, an internal borrowing cannot be a bor because there is no physical contact between speakers. The Category:Borrowed terms subcategories by language would be 'Borrowing subcategories', and the 'Borrowed terms' or 'loanwords' would be placed under it, as all kinds of borrowings are. Such a structure would give us the chance to make precise etymology categorizations for el (Greek). Thank you, ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 22:22, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

For categorisation, learned borrowings are treated as a type of borrowing. --RichardW57m (talk) 13:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I take "directly" here to mean "not via another language". Thadh (talk) 14:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Direct = not through another language.

Wikipedia has a good explanation. Vininn126 (talk) 14:27, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

So should English verboten be recorded as a learned loan from German? --RichardW57m (talk) 13:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Thadh, Vininn126, RichardW57m, lbors are from another language Example: all New Latin scientific terms, French terms for fashion, etc. They are not normal 'bor'. I think that the sense 'directly' in the 2 definitions should be explained with other wording.

The problem is with 'lbor' at a word like sibling, which is categorized at both Category:English learned borrowings from Old English and the impossible Category:English terms borrowed from Old English (which means from speaker to speaker). These internal borrowings from ancestral periods cannot go under both categories.

As for verboten in English, I do not know how it entered the language. For Greek, it is a direct reference to the German Occupation, and people picked it up (verboten, Papiere), from what german officers shouted at them. So, it was a direct acoustic loanword with negative sense for greeks. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:12, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Suddenly I get the distinction of learned and unlearned borrowings thanks to Sarri.greek’s intercession. Yet it is doubtful that the distinction merely corresponds to transmission by reading and by hearing. If an university professor picks up a word to shout it at his students, isn’t it a learned borrowing? And nowadays people find new up words by reading and writing them in very unlearned and ill-informed chats. Fay Freak (talk) 01:02, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: Please don't lie. Category:English terms borrowed from Old English does not mean just from speaker to speaker by auditory means. Learned borrowings are still borrowings. RichardW57 (talk) 06:09, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@RichardW57, how i see it:

1) Category:Borrowings

• 1a Cat:Borrowed terms = loanwords = from speaker to speake, direct, acoustic, oral, spontaneous, of-the-people:the opposite of learned
• 1b Cat:Learned borrowings (better Learned borrowed temrs
  Also, a subcat of special interest: Learned borrowings from previous periods, ancestral languages
• 1c Cat:Calques (these are mostly [+learned]), ... 1d. semantic loans (usually [+learned]), 1e... and so on.

2) Category:Inherited

I feel that at the moment there is a confusion and fusion of 1 and 1a. Perhaps because the wording is the same: borrow-ing borrw-ed.terms. sibling is 1b, under1, it is not 1a. If 'sibling' were passed directly from speaker to speaker, from generation to generation it would have been Inherited. But it was an intentional choice of internal learned borrowing. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 10:55, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: We don't yet have a category for 1a. Now, does asking someone what something is called make the resulting loan 'spontaneous'? I don't think so, but you seem to think that being elicited makes kangaroo a learned loan! Also, remember that there are people who non-trivially speak both a classical language and one of its descendants. --RichardW57m (talk) 11:44, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Lua error

The entry for prometido has a glitch, where it keeps saying, Lua error in Module:scripts/data at line 37: attempt to index global 'aliases' (a nil value). 70.124.147.243 16:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

How can one reproduce the error? DCDuring (talk) 16:53, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

It's been fixed. Someone had caused Module:scripts/data to stop working. Theknightwho (talk) 17:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)