Wiktionary talk:Wiktionary Logo

Problem with final phoneme transcription

Regardless of whether you opt for the four syllable or three syllable pronunciation of Wiktionary, the final phoneme in both is an /i:/. Currently in the logo it is transcribed as /I/. Would someone like to defend this or is it simple a highly visible mistake that requires rapid correction? Oska 23:38, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The logo was done by Brion VIBBER, whose speech it presumably represents. Given that it is within square brackets, which indicate phonetic transcription, instead of slashes that indicate a phonemic transcription, [I] is a valid rendering (the pronunciation as something like [I] is why final /i:/ is transcribed as plain /i/ in RP SAMPA which normally indicates phoneme length.) —Muke Tever 01:04, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

However, it was agreed some time back that /i/ is a more faithful rendering of the final unstressed "i" sound in words such as "wiktionary". This is the system that the Rhymes pages use. Forgive my ignorance - how do square brackets and slashes make a difference to the system used? It is still IPA, after all, and "I" is qualitatively different from "i". — Paul G 12:29, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A phonemic transcription, in slashes, describes only what is significant to the language in question. A phonetic transcription, in square brackets, can be as accurate as the transcriber likes. For example, while most speakers will have /kaːm/ for calm, a phonetic transcription of my pronunciation is [kʰɐ̃ːm], which is probably different to yours. --Vladisdead 12:48, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

o.k. I missed the square brackets, probably because I was expecting a phonemic transcription as is usual and most useful in dictionaries. I still think the transcription is problematic in the logo. A dictionary lists all pronunciations in common usage. I'm guessing that the phonetic transcription given in the logo is perhaps the common pronunciation in parts of nothern england? That would then give us three common pronunciations: /"wIkS@nri/, /"wIkS@%nEri/ and /"wIkS@nrI/. Having just one phonemic transcription in such a visible place I would think less than ideal. The situation as it is with a phonetic transcription is even less. Oska 05:39, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You're right, phonetic transcriptions in a dictionary aren't particularly useful. Also, you can get away with calling the final [ɪ] and [i] different pronunciations of the same phoneme, so there would just be two, /ˈwɪkʃənri/ and /ˈwɪkʃəˌneri/. --Vladisdead 10:26, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is a phonemic transcription of one RP (ie, as spoken in southern English) pronunciation. Those who pronounce it /"wIkS@nrI/ would probably use final /I/ rather than final /i/, so it is faithful to that pronunciation. However, the pronunciation /"wIkS@%nEri/ is much more widespread. Maybe the best option would be to dispense with the pronunciation altogether. In any case, the square brackets and the "n.," label do not conform to Wiktionary standards either. — Paul G 12:03, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The thing is, it's a logo. It's not particularly meant to be anything other than an iconic representation of the project. Still, if consensus is it must be changed, the place to put it is at [1], then post a note at m:Requests for logos to have them activate it. The title "Wiktionary" (and subsequent "Wilco") is in Times New Roman, and the remainder of the logo text is Trebuchet. —Muke Tever 16:41, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reading back over this conversation it occurs to me it was a bit brash to come in and start criticising the logo as the first thing I do on Wiktionary. And from the comments here I've realised that my suggestion of /i:/ was not such a good representation for this unstressed position and that /i/ is a better choice. So thank you all for your constructive comments on a conversation I started a little arrogantly.

Still, I do think the current transcription is less than ideal and there seems to be some agreement. What do others suggest if we do go ahead and change the logo? Should it even include a pronunciation transcription? One or multiple? Or skip it for something different? And finally do we collect votes here or should we raise the issue in some more public forum? Oska 08:05, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, I don't think we can too heavily change the format of the logo. (I would have liked to make a better logo for the Latin wiktionary but they said "just translate the text".) Note that it is a logo after all, and being in use it shows up in many more places than just the corner of our pages... we'll have a lot more updating to do than just the Wiki.png. Maybe this should be discussed on meta somewhere (some page like m:Wiktionary logo)—Muke Tever 15:08, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Would it be possible to have the server randomly select one of several logos? That way we could get it to show one of the various common pronunciations and also do it in either IPA or in the American-dictionary-style transcription (which I used to label AHD).

As for IPA transcription, I would go with (SAMPA-ized here) "wIkS@nri and "wIkS@n%eri (or "wIkS@n%Eri as some prefer). I would leave out the slashes from the logo as they're not necessary and dictionaries don't usually bother with them. Note that I have put secondary stress in a different place where I feel the syllable break belongs due to my perception of the word-formation: diction-ary, not dictio-nary. I also would not bother with "wIkS@nrI or "wIkS@nri: since final "i" represents both realizations of final unstressed "-y". — Hippietrail 01:33, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others - kept

Kept. See archived discussion of January 2008. 07:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)