Module talk:dng-pron

Tones

@Zcreator Why is tone 2 equivalent to tone 1? It seems like Dungan study has established tones I, II, and III (24, 51, and 44). Is it a parallel to Putonghua? I think we should follow existing standard and use only 1/2/3 (+ 輕聲). —suzukaze (t・c) 06:15, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, Zcreator: I think we should follow Gansu Dungan's three tone system too. I think Zcreator is just following the tone numbers given at Wikipedia. According to Omniglot, there's actually another way to show tone (ма, маъ, маь). Whichever way we pick to notate tones, we should stick with the three tone system. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:46, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm in favor of the Roman numerals because it's the style mentioned on Russian Wikipedia. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:28, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

What I'm thinking of is that the input to zh-pron stays the way it currently is, but zh-pron outputs the Cyrillic form, stripped of inline numbers and annotated with Roman numerals to the right. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Sounds good! "Soviet Dungan" by Svetlana Rimsky-Korsakoff says, "In general, Roman numerals are preferred", so that should be the convention adopted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:20, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, Zcreator I've changed to tones to the 3-tone system. We'll have to go through all Dungan entries to search for wrong tones. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Special:WhatLinksHere/Module:dng-pron may be what you need. Also we need to decide to use I/II/III or 1/2/3.--Zcreator (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we can stick with 1/2/3 for input, but for the display, we should use I/II/III after the word, similar to how Wu tones are displayed. For example, 火車 should have something like хуәчә (huəčə) II-I. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:45, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

(Just making sure: @Atitarev, are you using the 1/2/3 tone system? —suzukaze (t・c) 01:51, 28 January 2018 (UTC))

@Suzukaze-c: Yes, краткий дунганско-русский словарь is the only Dungan source I have, which uses 1/2/3.

Is anyone willing to undertake a transliteration module? Dungan is very phonetic and I think it will work for both Sinitic and non-Sinitic words. Tones are used for non-Sinitic words but they shouldn't affect the transliteration. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:02, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I've been working on Module:User:Suzukaze-c/dng-translit, but I don't know how acceptable it is. There are two transliteration schemes for consideration. (Ignore the IPA part for now.) —suzukaze (t・c) 02:19, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: It looks like a good start but I don't know what the standard should be. We can probably make it closer to pinyin minus tone marks. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

tt_custom is intended to be mildly pinyin-like. You can change the local tt = tt_classic line in the code to local tt = tt_custom and put Module:User:Suzukaze-c/dng-translit/documentation in the "Preview page with this template" input box to see what it would look like. —suzukaze (t・c) 02:40, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I've enabled Module:dng-translit. —suzukaze (t・c) 07:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

To do

• Making adjustments to the IPA for initials and finals
• Tone sandhi (this hinges upon splitting I into Ia and Ib)
• Erhua

— justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks for your contributions. Not all Dungan words are Sinitic but they may also have tones and syllables and finals can be different from normal, Sinitic syllables. We also a transliteration module (User:Suzukaze-c has done some work) and headword templates with optional hanzi displayed next to the Cyrillic form and transliterations. I've added a number of Dungan words to Chinese entries from kratky dungansko-russky slovar' (concise Dungan-Russian dictionary). Hopefully it covers enough test cases but let me know if you need more. The dictionary is downloadable but it's in Russian and many characters need to be corrected when copying. Visually they are correct but can't be copied and headwords are in all caps. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:22, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, @Atitarev! I've actually found that dictionary when I saw it in one of Suzukaze's edit summaries. It's pretty good, but it doesn't show any distinction between yinping and yangping, which actually shows up in tone sandhi according to both Salmi (2007) and Lin (2012). I've also found this dictionary, which includes many entries from kratky dungansko-russky slovar' and includes tones (with yinping and yangping distinctions) for many entries. It also has hanzi when possible, which is a great thing for us. Lin (2012) also has a word list with words in Cyrillic script and hanzi (even for loanwords) and actual pronunciation (showing yinping and yangping distinctions) in IPA. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:41, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

What's up with Dungan

@Justinrleung According to the corresponding Wikipedia article, Dungan is a separate language in itself, not a dialect or local variety of Mandarin. If that is true, then why is Dungan listed under the section for Mandarin pronunciations? Come to think of it, why is this module even necessary anyway, if it's experimental and often inaccurate? Johnny Shiz (talk) 19:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Johnny Shiz: I'm not sure if that's what the Wikipedia article says exactly. It can definitely be considered a variety of Central Plains Mandarin, as seen in the infobox. (Note that it's not a dialect of Standard Mandarin.) It's experimental, meaning that there's still work to refine it - this doesn't make it unnecessary. We just need to work out some of the details, such as the IPA for certain rimes and the tones. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:00, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Got it; thx. Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:13, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

вурус

@Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung The module can't handle the final "-с" as in вурус (vurus, “Russian”), tones are I-II or I-III. It may be written in hanzi as 烏魯斯／乌鲁斯. It may be difficult to make it work with non-Sinitic loans. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:58, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Two pronunciations

@Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung: At гуйтў the module is apparently generating {{IPA|dng|/kuei²⁴ tʰu⁵¹/, /kuei²⁴ tʰu²⁴/}}, which is putting it into CAT:IPA pronunciations with invalid IPA characters because that syntax is interpreted as using the slashes as phonetic characters. Could the module please be edit to generate {{IPA|dng|/kuei²⁴ tʰu⁵¹/|/kuei²⁴ tʰu²⁴/}} instead? That's the usual syntax for multiple pronunciations. Thanks! —Mahāgaja · talk 12:59, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

 Done by using {{dng-pron|гуй1тў2|гуй1тў1}} instead of {{dng-pron|гуй1тў2/гуй1тў1}} [1]. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)