Talk:κιθάρα

Etymology

What is the evidence that this term "probably" derives from Persian, and didn't this instrument exist under this name before widespread contacts between Greece and Persia? 173.89.236.187 02:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

It's not from Persian, I have changed the etymology. --Vahag (talk) 07:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

If pre-Greek, from which possible pre-Greek language? 173.89.236.187 08:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

See also Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2017/March#κιθάρα_vs._κῐθάρα. - -sche (discuss) 22:35, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Florian, what is BS? 194.225.15.62 07:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Bullshit. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:41, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Though with those apparently high standards Wikipedia must definitely lie in the SUBS (super ultra BS) range, it says "The Online Etymology Dictionary has been referenced by Oxford University's Arts and Humanities Community Resource catalog as an excellent tool for those seeking the origins of words and cited in the Chicago Tribune as one of the best resources for finding just the right word. It is cited in academic work as a useful, though not definitive, reference for etymology." But no problem, take a look at Klein's Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the English Language [1] page 326. 194.225.1.209 20:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Whatever these sources may say, it's simply impossible that the Greek word, which is already attested in Homeric Greek and thus already existed in Greek around 700 BC (if not 800 BC), is borrowed from Modern Persian. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:41, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

And who said it is?! I have most obviously not made any such claims at all. The first part of what you reverted was "Perhaps from Persian ..." not "Modern Persian". I guess that's a gravely inaccurate interpretation of the second part which read「Compare Modern Persian cognate سه‌تار, meaning "three strings")」. I even explicitly made clear that it's obviously not borrowed from Modern Persian and tried to explain how you had misinterpreted it [2]. We could drop the second part if it still somehow looks vague! 194.225.15.121 17:29, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Your speculation is based on the idea that Ancient Greek κιθάρα (kithára) is similar to Persian سه‌تار, and relies on the assumption that Old Persian had an ancestor word similar to Persian سه‌تار. The first is not true for instance because the first consonant is very different (why would Greek borrow an s sound as κ when σ is much closer?), and the second is doubtful from my limited knowledge because Old Persian words are in some cases significantly different from their descendant Modern Persian words because of sound changes, and it is also possible that the word did not even exist at the time. — Eru·tuon 22:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, I made no assumptions or speculations. I just provided some good sources (Klein [3] and online etymological dictionary [4] and surely there would be more if you dig up). And regarding your two points: firstly, the first sound of the word for "3" in Old Persian is not s but ç [5] which is an allophone of k in several languages. Secondly, yes, in most cases significant differences exist. This case might be one of them and might not. And I should add that I'm now not sure if Ancient Greek κιθάρα (kithára) is similar to Persian سه‌تار because it is not directly mentioned in the sources. What I say is that there exist reliable sources which suggest that κιθάρα is derived from an Old Persian word, which might or might not be the origin of Persian سه‌تار.194.225.1.231 07:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

These sources are simply wrong. The name of the cithara, which was being played in Greece already in the 8th/7th century BC, cannot possibly be a borrowing from Persian, for chronological, cultural, linguistic, historical, geographical, practical and material reasons. See w:Talk:Cythara. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:44, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, none of these sources are particularly good. Klein may be competent in English and perhaps Germanic, but that doesn't automatically translate into competence on Ancient Greek and Old Iranian. Online Etymology Dictionary is not a professional dictionary; it's the result of an amateur on the Internet semi-competently compiling material gleaned from unnamed dictionaries, unlike its better-known "acronym-sake" Oxford English Dictionary, whose reputation it seems to be piggybacking on. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:51, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Florian, I liked this part the most "At least not with the meaning of 'three-string' akin to the origin of sitar". That's exactly what I'm saying. If you have anything rather than your own opinion, based on published sources, just please let everybody know. Other sources claiming the Persian etymology of guitar:

• An Etymological Dictionary of Persian , English and other Indo-European Languages, page 481 [6]
• The History of the Guitar, page 7 [7]
• Popular Music: Topics, Trends & Trajectories, page 94 [8]
• The Illustrated History of the Guitar, Page 53 [9]
• Handbook of Guitar and Lute Composers, page 6 [10].

And regarding the idea that anything from 8th/7th century BC, cannot possibly be a borrowing from Persian (!), please see Ancient Greek τοξότης (toxótēs) from Ancient Greek τόξον (tóxon), which has a (rather) established Iranian origin and used, for example, in Iliad (800-600 BC, see the first quotation in τοξότης). I think these are quit enough to say κιθάρα is perhaps from Persian. 80.66.190.95 15:00, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

None of these sources are written by professional historical linguists, so the list is worthless twaddle. And yes, you implied that kithára originates from the Modern Persian word setar, since you cited that one (Old Persian was at the time a radically different language; it's like citing Modern English when one wants to claim a borrowing from Proto-Germanic), whose meaning is 'three-string'. As for tóxon, it might be from an Old Iranian language or it might be not (read the actual entry!), but it is not claimed anywhere to be from Persian, and certainly not from Modern Persian! Stop moving the goalposts.

By the time kithára was borrowed, an Iranian source with a meaning like 'three-X' would have started in θr- (quite possibly even the ancestor of Persian at the time, although a direct borrowing from Southwestern Iranian into Epic Greek or even an earlier form of Greek is factually excluded, and if it was borrowed even earlier, the source could hardly have been Southwestern Iranian specifically), and a borrowing of Iranian θr- into Greek as k- makes zero sense phonetically; and if the source is supposed to be Iranian but is supposed to mean something different, it makes no sense to cite setar, and moreover we're in the realm of baseless speculation then – it might be Iranian, but it might as well be Anatolian or Hurrian or Semitic or whatever (or in fact Beekes's Pre-Greek substratum), the source could be anything, and there is no particular reason left to assume an Iranian source. That's why all experts on Ancient Greek etymology treat the word as a loanword from an undetermined source.

You keep ignoring that other Wiktionary editors with linguistic competence have contradicted you. You're inverting reality: It is you who has only got an opinion you want to defend, not knowledge. You're ragingly incompetent, and stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this. Classic crackpot behaviour. I'm done with you. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:30, 5 February 2021 (UTC)