Talk:жалейка

Etymology

Can it be added what the terms this word derives from mean? 173.89.236.187 23:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean жалейковый and жалейщик? жалейковый and жалейщик derive from жалейка, not the other way around. Eventually someone will create entries for жалейковый and жалейщик. жалейковый is the adjective for жалейка...it means pertaining to the zhaleika, characteristic of the zhaleika. жалейщик is the person who plays a zhaleika. —Stephen ^(Talk) 00:46, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

No, that is not what I was referring to. In the "Etymology" section, it says "From жалея ‎(žaleja) +‎ -ка ‎(-ka), from жалеть ‎(žaletʹ) +‎ -ея ‎(-jeja)." I asked what the terms from which "zhaleika" derives (which are these two terms) mean. Presumably they refer to something like a horn or a pipe, as would be logical for an instrument of this type. 173.89.236.187 02:27, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

жалея is a participle that means "while regretting", "feeling sorry", from the verb жалеть (to pity, be sorry, feel sorry). -ка is a diminutive suffix, often used to form nouns. —Stephen ^(Talk) 03:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

This seems a very unusual etymology for a musical instrument of this type. What is the source indicating that this instrument is named after "regretting," and how do we know that it is not simply a guess? Most reference works say that the origin of this instrument's name is simply unknown. 173.89.236.187 03:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I don’t know the etymology of жалейка, what I wrote was the meanings of жалея and жалеть. —Stephen ^(Talk) 04:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Mihnevich suggests that the zhaleika was originally used at wakes when people were buried in ancient burial mounds (жа́льник (žálʹnik)). In Old Church Slavonic, the word жа́льник (žálʹnik) transmitted the Greek μνημεῖον (sepulcrum, tomb). —Stephen ^(Talk) 04:31, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, is he a linguist or the author of an etymological dictionary in print form, which you are relying on? I wonder what his evidence is about this, other than the similarity between the words. Usually this kind of instrument (i.e., reed pipes with animal horns on the ends) is associated with things dionysian. 173.89.236.187 05:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Влади́мир О́сипович Михне́вич (Vladímir Ósipovič Mixnévič), 1841–1899, Russian journalist, essayist, writer, historian of everyday life, local history. Things dionysian does not sound like Ancient Russia to me. —Stephen ^(Talk) 06:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you are unfamiliar with "The Rite of Spring" or "Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors." Those pre-Christian springtime religious observances were among the most outrageous one can imagine. 173.89.236.187 20:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Mihnevich's etymology seems speculative, and suspect, without any evidence to back it up. 173.89.236.187 20:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Apparently жаль can also mean "bite" or "sting" (as of an insect or snake), and this seems to make sense, since the instrument sounds a bit like the buzzing of a mosquito or bee. I don't know if this alternate etymology has been proposed.

video of zhaleika

173.89.236.187 21:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

жаль, from жалить, would not yield the word жалейка (the second syllable could not have the vowel е). The original (or earliest recorded) name for this instrument is брёлка. The name жалейка is recent, first attested around the end of the 18th century (shortly before Mihnevich was born). What was believed about the instrument, that is, that it was used for wakes in ancient times, is why it was called the жалейка. Russian etymologies are rarely so ambiguous and uncertain as English etymologies, because of the nature of the Russian language itself. —Stephen ^(Talk) 14:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, how do you know that "брёлка" was the original name for this instrument, and why is this information not in the entry? 173.89.236.187 22:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Is there any textual evidence (beyond Mihnevich's speculations) that the instrument was used for wakes, or was believed to have a mournful sound in Russian culture? It is real etymological data that we need, otherwise we can be in the position of just propagating speculation. 173.89.236.187 22:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

брёлка and other information simply have not yet been added. It often takes years and many contributors to build up a good entry. As for evidence, I’m sure that is ample evidence waiting to be located and translated. Same story with almost all Russian entries, as well as many entries in a lot of other languages. Sometimes people pop up who are interested and experienced in digging that stuff up, and such people are always welcome. I don’t find that kind of work to be satisfying, so I usually don’t bother with it. I’m more interested in grammar and usage. At this moment, I don’t think we have anybody here who is capable and willing to do that kind of work with Russian. —Stephen ^(Talk) 22:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

pronunciation

@Atitarev I'm guessing this has phon=желейка like жалеть. Benwing2 (talk) 03:21, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, correct.--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:13, 7 February 2016 (UTC)