Talk:полтора

@Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89 Does this word have an animate/inanimate distinction in the masc.? Benwing2 (talk) 10:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, e.g. "на (Acc.) полутора человека". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:01, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 12:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev What about in the feminine or neuter? Presumably not? Benwing2 (talk) 12:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to establish neuter animate usage. There are not so many animate neuter nouns, and talking about "one and a half of ..." about creatures is rare. Besides, colloquially (or in a non-standard way) "полтора" is indeclinable, at least in the accusative. Presumably, "полутора" refers to both masculine and neuter animates, for feminines, the indeclinable form "полторы" is used. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:19, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, there's words like ча́до (čádo) and чудо́вище (čudóvišče) that are neuter animate, and мазло́ (mazló) is animate and can be either masc or neuter according to Zaliznyak. But if your intuitions aren't clear here I'm just going to leave the declension of полтора́ as-is. Presumably два/две are have the animate/inanimate acc. distinction in all genders? Benwing2 (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

My intuition doesn't help me much here, instead of "я ви́жу полу́тора чудо́вища" (I see one and a half monsters) I'd like to say "я ви́жу полтора́ чудо́вища", which is OK in the colloquial speech, anyway. Not sure if it is described somewhere. No issue with with the current "два/две". Yes, leave the entry as is. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

My guess would be yes (that the neuter singular would take полутора in the accusative), but it's hard to find evidence. Also, you guys messed up the stress on чудо́вище. --WikiTiki89 16:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, not just the stress but the endings in the accusative should be "полу́тора челове́к" and "полу́тора чудо́вищ". I blindly copied in both cases. The form "полу́тора чудо́вищ" (acc.) occurs in a translation of Somerset Maugham's "Theatre" - "Ма́стерски воо́чию он уви́дел полу́тора чудо́вищ, склони́вшихся над ним и вско́ре мурлы́кавших." --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Consider this settled with the one example of "полу́тора чудо́вищ" from literature I found. I found out something about the Russian grammar, something I never thought about. I asked my wife, she would also say "полтора́ челове́ка" and "полтора́ чудо́вища" in the accusative, which is, strictly speaking, incorrect. Another thing, even some authoritative source, like gramota.ru, sometimes claim that there are no animate neuter nouns. We know it's not true. Interestingly, no Russian would say "я вижу два животные" (the correct accusative - "двух животных") but many would still say "я вижу два чудовища" (the correct accusative - "двух чудовищ"). So animate neuters are sometimes used as inanimates, not sure if it's non-standard or colloquial, just a fact. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Just to complete my thought from before, the reason I guessed that the neuter singular would take полутора in the accusative is that the base word пол is still masculine regardless of the gender of the following words. --WikiTiki89 17:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

(Notifying Atitarev, Cinemantique, KoreanQuoter, Useigor, Wanjuscha, Wikitiki89, Stephen G. Brown, Per utramque cavernam, Guldrelokk): Does this lemma also have plural forms for pluralia tantum (e.g. "one and a half scissors"?) and if so what is the nominative plural? Maybe полторы́х? Benwing2 (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Benwing2 It’s полуторых.

Though this form is likely technically non-standard. Guldrelokk (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and awkward. Of course it is the genitive, the nominative is completely impossible. Guldrelokk (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

In other news, I find extremely weird what @Atitarev said above. What exact authority says that the correct masculine animate accusative is полутора? Guldrelokk (talk) 21:53, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk, Benwing2: You're right. Sorry, that was a stuffup on my part. Thanks for pointing this out. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:21, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk I tried to fix up the table appropriately. What do you mean that the nominative is completely impossible? How do you say "There are one and a half scissors on the table"? Benwing2 (talk) 23:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Benwing2: полуторых is only genitive and I’m not sure it should be included now, even if it is quotable. There is no way to say one and a half scissors. This is a common issue when people want to say one and a half суток (sutok) – everyone knows it’s impossible. Guldrelokk (talk) 23:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk: OK. I modified the table to only include the form as genitive plural. I think it will be OK with the footnote attached. Benwing2 (talk) 23:24, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Benwing2: I think this table can be simplified, re-decl-adj with special=cdva fits it well:
{{ru-decl-adj|-|manual|nom_mp=полтора́|nom_fp=полторы́|gen_p=полу́тора|dat_p=полу́тора|ins_p=полу́тора|pre_p=полу́тора|special=cdva}}

Declension of полтора́

		masculine/neuter	feminine
nominative		полтора́ poltorá	полторы́ poltorý
genitive		полу́тора polútora
dative		полу́тора polútora
accusative		полтора́ poltorá	полторы́ poltorý
instrumental		полу́тора polútora
prepositional		полу́тора polútora

Guldrelokk (talk) 13:04, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk, Benwing2: It's good, thanks. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:21, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Guldrelok Looks good. Benwing2 (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Guldrelokk Haven't had my coffee yet ... :( Benwing2 (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)