Talk:ھەسان

@Calak, Ačaṙean derives from Armenian հեսան (hesan, “whetstone”), from Old Armenian յեսան (yesan), which has been compared to the Iranian words for ‘whetstone’ but usually is considered of uncertain origin. --Vahag (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Asatrian agrees. --Vahag (talk) 15:45, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Check {{R:xme:Asatrian:2011|page=442}}, he derives it from OIr.*sā with prefix *ham. We also have same word in Gorani. Compare also Middle Persian [Term?] (/⁠hassūd⁠/, “whetted”). Yes, Zazaki hêsan (it is with ê (ē) not e (a)) can be an Armenian loanword.--Calak (talk) 16:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Calak, I see. Are you sure Zazaki hêsan exists? In this Kurdish–Zazaki dictionary by {{R:zza:Kocadag|page=739b}} I find Northern Kurdish hêsan glossed as Zazaki hesane, but I don't know if it refers to ‘whetstone’. --Vahag (talk) 17:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan I am not sure, but I found it here. In you dictionary, second means whetstone. Vahag even hê- from OIr.*ham- is very common. Compare Northern Kurdish hêvotin, hêvoj- from OIr.*ham-mauča-, hêwî from OIr.*ham-paθnī, hêvên from OIr.*ham-madu/ayana-, ... .

I think Ačaṙean is wrong and Kurdish word should be a native word from same source which Old Armenian յեսան (yesan) has been derived (i.e from OIr. *ham-sā-na-). Why should we take all Kurdish dialects (includes Southern Kurdish), Zazaki and Gorani word an Armenian loanword? I think it is improbable. Even if we accept it, we can't explain Kurdish verb with same etymology.--Calak (talk) 18:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

It's not just Ačaṙean, but also Asatrian, who when discussing the Zaza words in his 1987 article usually says the Kurdish cognates are also borrowed from Armenian. Iranian *ham- cannot explain Old Armenian յե- (ye-), because it is faithfully rendered as համ- (ham-). Still, I removed the claim of Armenian origin because of the spread in other Kurdish languages. For now we can assume it is a freak coincidence that the words ended up with the same form and meaning in Armenian and Kurdish. --Vahag (talk) 19:45, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Asatrian proposed an Iranian etymology later (like moz in 1987 article). Also Middle Persian [Term?] (/⁠hassūd⁠/, “whetted”) (from *ham-sū-ta-) confirms Kurdish form can be from Iranian. Now beside SK, Gorani and Zazaki, if we can find hasān in other Iranian languages, we can reject Armenian source.--Calak (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2018 (UTC)