Talk:ἀφαιρετική

RFV discussion: March–July 2015

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ἀφαιρετική

RFV noun sense: the reference given is to a book that doesn't give any citation, and may well be calquing the term from Latin. ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα) 01:56, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention that it's a 1770 German book on Latin by a Jesuit named Manuel Alvarez (title page here), in an Appendix whose first page says it's mostly compiled from a 1606 work by another Jesuit named w:Jacob Gretser (title page here). Comparing the page referenced with the corresponding page in Gretser's book, it becomes apparent that Gretser doesn't give a term for the ablative case (not surprising, since Greek doesn't have an ablative case), so Alvarez probably made it up to avoid a gap in his table. Also, both Ancient and Modern Greek were written with the same script in those days, so we can't even be sure which of those two we're dealing with. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:43, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

By the way, LSJ doesn't have this term, but it does have ἀποκομιστικός with the definition of "ablativus". Chuck Entz (talk) 07:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

πύλη gives — Entry #1 seems to say that "αφαιρετική" comes from the Hellenistic "ἀφαιρετική" which is a substantivisation of the Hellenistic adjective "ἀφαιρετικός" a calque (?loan) from the Latin ablativus. — Entry #2 seems to say something similar.
My two Greek dictionaries give no etymology. I'm a long way from being an etymologist and my translations of etyms in Greek always worry me - Do I understand what they've written!   — Saltmarsh^{συζήτηση-talk} 09:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

That helps. It would seem that ObsequiousNewt was correct about it being a calque, but 4th century is definitely well within what we consider to be Ancient Greek. Since Ancient Greek isn't a WDL, that would be enough to verify the term for Ancient Greek, if we accept the source(s). Are they from durably archived works, or are they onine databases only? Chuck Entz (talk) 12:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

"I think" the entries are based on the Dictionary of Common Modern Greek Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής (viewable in English)   — Saltmarsh^{συζήτηση-talk} 16:17, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Two (2) sources were given, not just the older German book. The terms in the book could be made up (as mentioned above), even though most grammar terms in it can be found in other sources as well (like dictionaries, (non-Greek) grammar books, translations of Greek books, Greek books like Dionysius Thrax' Tekhne Grammatike). The other source is "DGE (Span., included in logeion.uchicago.edu)", that is Diccionario Griego-Español (Greek–Spanish Dictionary; wp: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diccionario_Griego-Espa%C3%B1ol]). In DGE it is: "2 gram. ablativo πτῶσις Dosith.392, cf. Gloss.2.252.". gram. stands for (or should stand for) gramática, grammar; ablativo is Spanish for [casus] ablativus, ablative [case]; πτῶσις is Greek for casus, (grammatical) case. -- 02:23-02:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

DGE cites Dositheus, page 392, who names all six cases (and the two given names for the ablative.) LSJ has entries for the other five, but doesn't cite Dositheus for any of them—the citations seem to be limited to a baker's dozen translations of Latin words. ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα) 16:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

So... RFV-passed based on the citations (dictionaries) mentioned above? - -sche (discuss) 07:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)