Talk:卓

Changes in Standards

A lot of people in Mainland China don't know that the change from Zhuo1 to Zhuo2 was made in 1985. Here's some info about the original standard:

Zhuō (former Mandarin pronunciation)

I wish we could include the dates of the changes in official pronunciation standards as part of this dictionary. May be something useful to researchers. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:44, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Were these 初稿 released as standards that were as authoritative as 普通话异读词审音表 though? If not, can they be considered former standards? @Wyang, Dokurrat, any idea on this? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:11, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative, Justinrleung: (1) I don't see how is a 初稿 "former standard". (2)卓 was to be regulated to zhuō doesn't imply anything. Pre-初稿 pronunciation cannot be assumed simply to be the same with 初稿 pronunciation. Dokurrat (talk) 15:28, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't have the old dictionaries with me, but according to my memory there were dictionaries from the PRC being published in the 1990's with the zhuo1 pronunciation. One time I argued with someone about the fact that the current official pronunciation is zhuo2 not zhuo1. To give you a concrete example of what I mean, here's the chinese wiktionary, where the zhuo1 pronunciation is presented as the 現代北京音 (look in the 上古音（白一平-沙加爾系統，2011年）drop-down box): chinese wiktionary Here's another dictionary with the zhuo1 pronunciation: a dictionary. I think that these two sources combined with the 1959 Chugao source (and my personal experience) show that there is a variant pronunciation for this character as zhuo1. I will keep looking for better sources to give you. Thanks for your interest. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:58, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I added the info about the former zhuo1 pronunciation of 卓. Rationale: 1、I have heard people use this pronunciation. 2、The second round of the 审音表初稿 in 1959 had the pronunciation as zhuo1 ("卓(姓) zhuō" 中国语文 总第85 July 1959 普通話异讀詞审音表初稿（續） Page 322). 3、现代汉语词典试用本 pg1360 (1977) gives only one pronunciation for 卓: zhuo1. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't seen this online; probably out there somewhere. This is what the sources I am looking at say:

《中国语文》1959年7月 《普通話异讀詞审音表初稿（續）》总第85 pg. 322, 323

page 322--------------

{...}

卓(姓) zhuō

·

卓見 zhuōjiàn

·

卓絕 zhuōjué

·

卓識 zhuōshí

·

卓著 zhuōzhù

·

{...}

page 323--------------

{...}

卓 zhuō (~,~見,~絕,

~著,~識)

{...}

普通话异读词三次审音总表初稿 pg. 148-149; 189,190 (1963)

page 148--------------

{...}

卓② Zhuō ㄓㄨㄛ

· (不取阳平)

卓见② zhuōjiàn ㄓㄨㄛㄐㄧㄢˋ

·

148

page 149--------------

卓絕② zhuōjué ㄓㄨㄛㄐㄩㄝˊ

·

卓識② zhuōshí ㄓㄨㄛㄕˊ

·

卓著② zhuōzhù ㄓㄨㄛㄓㄨˋ

·

{...}

page 189----------------

{...}

卓 zhuō ㄓㄨㄛ (~,~见,~絕

189

page 190----------------

~識,~著)

{...}

现代汉语词典(试用本) pg. 1360 (1977)

page 1360---------------

zhūn-zhuō 1360

{...}

zhuō (ㄓㄨㄛ)

拙 zhuō {...}

{...}

卓 zhuō ①高而直: ~立。②高明:~見。

③(Zhuō)姓。

【卓尔不群】 zhuō'ěr bù qún {...}

【卓見】 zhuōjiàn {...}

【卓絕】 zhuōjué {...}

【卓犖】【卓躒】 zhuōluò {...}

【卓然】zhuōrán {...}

【卓識】zhuōshí {...}

【卓越】zhuōyuè {...}

【卓著】zhuōzhù {...}

捉 zhuō {...}

{...}

桌 zhuō {...}

{...}

page 1361-----------------

1361 zhuō-zhuó

{...}

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:13, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Here's the decision where zhuō was abandoned for zhuó:

普通话异读词审音表 pages 50; 65 (1987)

page 50-----------

{...}

拙 zhuō (统读)

茁 zhuó (统读)

灼 zhuó (统读)

卓 zhuó (统读)

宗 {...}

{...}

page 65------------

{...}

卓 zhuó (统读)

{...}

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:42, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

There are other places where this pronunciation is mentioned. This pronunciation survived into the 1990's in some dictionaries I remember looking at in late 2015. Around that time, I heard this pronunciation used to say '卓越'. The speaker initially thought zhuō was standard, not zhuó. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: AFAIK, these sources were not yet put into effect, so they cannot be considered the "former standard". I think it can only be listed as a variant to avoid any misnomers. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 13:08, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I recently found something interesting with regard to this issue. The 2nd printing (Jul 1988) of 现代汉语常用字表 listed 卓 under zhuō (excerpt), but the 3rd printing (May 1989) moved it to zhuó (excerpt). --2600:1:B128:E5E5:991E:943:4684:837B 17:38, 27 September 2019 (UTC)