Talk:會

Min "substitute character for 解"

Where does this claim come from? Just wondering. —suzukaze (t・c) 08:45, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: It's from various sources:

• Axel Schuessler, ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese

huì₃ 會 ...

⪤ xiè 解 (ɣaɨ^B) LH gɛ^B, OCM *grêʔ

‘Can’, aux. vb. expressing potentiality [Tang], later replaced by the above huì. It is not clear if this and the above word are variants or cognates, but their similarity is suggestive. This word survives in M-Jiànyáng hai^C, Fúzhōu a^C2, Xiàmén ue^C2.

• 周长楫 et al., 《闽南方言大词典》

“会”为训读字，本字是“解”。《广韵·蟹韵》胡买切：“解，晓也。”古汉语已用之。南朝宋·刘义庆《世说新语·术解》：“晋明帝解占冢宅，闻郭璞为人葬，帝微服往看。”

• 臺灣閩南語按呢寫

學術界多半承認 ē 的本字是「解」。「解」有三組文白音，共六個音：一、上聲，文音 kái ，如「了解」、白音 ké/kué/keré，如「解說」；二、陰去聲，音 kài，如「解元」、白音 kè，如「解送」、「押解」；三、陽去聲，胡買切音蟹，《廣韻》：「曉也」。文音 hāi，白音漳 ē、泉 uē 或 erē，如「會使得」、「會曉」就是這個音。

— justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

fei4/fei1?

@Prisencolin, where's fei4/fei1 from? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:45, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Justinrleung From this Crayon Shin-Chan episode at 4:40. Mapping Media in China: Region, Province, Locality says that Shin-Chan speaks in Chengdu dialect. I may have misheard the "fei1" pronunciation.--Prisencolin (talk) 07:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Prisencolin: I don't see any mention of Chengdu in that book. It says "... Crayon Shinchan all appeared in Yunnan dialects", clearly not Chengdu. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:38, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Accidentally linked the wrong book, it's this one.--Prisencolin (talk) 07:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Prisencolin: I feel like the video is kind of unreliable since the parents don't speak the Chengdu dialect. We can't be sure if Shin Chan actually uses "pure" Chengdu dialect. To me, his pronunciation of 機會 is exactly the same as his mom's. @Wyang, any thoughts here? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:34, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree. @Prisencolin (do you have a preferred name?), thanks for your edits so far! It's great to see many Sichuanese entries being created. There were minor improvements that could be made in the format of these entries, and these (1, 2) show some of the changes that others have made to your created entries. Some points to bear in mind are:

1. For character or word pronunciations like these, we should really be basing them on consensus among published sources on the urban Chengdu dialect (城区方言), occasionally using corroboration by native speakers when there is suspicion that an undocumented pronunciation is in use, or the documented pronunciations are incorrect. If possible, could you add the major sources on Chengdu dialect pronunciations to Wiktionary:About Chinese/Sichuanese? We should be relying on these heavily as primary sources for pronunciations, not videos which feature speakers of uncertain dialects to infer individual character pronunciations, especially one as common as 會.
2. No leading spaces in any of the parameters of {{zh-pron}} (such as |m-s=, |cat=), or trailing spaces in {{zh-forms}}.
3. Abbreviations instead of full names in the |cat= parameter in {{zh-pron}}, i.e. |cat=v instead of |cat= verb (which also has a leading space). The full names also work, but the greater majority of other entries have been converted to use abbreviations as part of speech.
4. Please check and make sure the page content makes sense and the title is correct (e.g. this revision, which has the content of 霍閃 in the page 扯霍). Also please make sure the headword-line templates (such as {{zh-verb}}) are consistent with the parts of speech (e.g. this revision shows {{zh-adverb}} under ===Verb===).
5. Only the urban Chengdu dialect to be included as |m-s=, not suburban dialects or non-Mandarin dialects spoken under the jurisdiction of Chengdu.
6. If possible, could you check against 汉语方言大词典 for uses in other dialects when adding these entries? It's generally uncommon for a word to be exclusively Sichuanese, and most are also used in other Southwestern Mandarin dialects, and many also in other Mandarin varieties and nearby Gan / Xiang dialects. 汉语方言大词典 is a fantastic source for checking the varieties in which a term is used. Let me know if you are having difficulty finding an electronic copy of this book.

Please let me or Justin (or anyone else active) know if you have any questions. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 09:13, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I've added the sources that I usually use to Wiktionary:About Chinese/Sichuanese. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:29, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for for the input, @Wyang I'll try to keep more conscientious going forth. Maybe the m-s parameter should be renamed, given the diversity of pronunciation outside Chengdu. As far as references go, Justin added pretty much the same sources I used, so I think we're okay on that end for now.--Prisencolin (talk) 09:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Prisencolin, I don't think it's necessary for m-s to be renamed. The Chengdu dialect is a representative dialect of Sichuanese Mandarin, just like the Shanghainese dialect is a representative dialect of Wu. BTW, I think the 四川方言词典 you're using is different from mine, which doesn't have "教你说一口地道的四川话". Could you add that to the list of references? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Unless I'm misunderstanding the one I'm using is the 1998 one already listed on the page, part of the 現代漢語方言大詞典 series. I don't remeber specifically where I got the electronic copy from.--Prisencolin (talk) 21:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Prisencolin: I didn't mean that one (成都方言詞典). I'm talking about 四川方言词典(教你说一口地道的四川话), where you got 扯霍閃 from. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh okay my bad I'll add it. (I don't believe this is an actually published book so it's probably alright to post the link).--Prisencolin (talk) 07:50, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

@Prisencolin:, thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we could cite this. It is unpublished work of unknown credibility; even the author is unknown. Wyang (talk) 08:05, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Also "festival"?

Can this also mean "fair" or "festival" in Mandarin (as in the title "趕花會")? 173.88.241.33 05:53, 29 July 2017 (UTC)