Talk:熊

Korean section

The Korean section is a bit strange. Is 곰 (gom) only the translation or a 2nd reading as well? If it is a second reading, how do you add it? See also Talk:곰#Etymology. --Anatoli 23:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Japanese etymology and Baekje comparandum?

@Atitarev, Karaeng Matoaya, Suzukaze-c, do any of you have anything to verify the February 2020 addition by anon 71.163.150.79 (talk) of the purported Baekje cognate 固麻 (koma, “bear”)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:48, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Eirikr This particular phonogramic usage comes from the Liang Shu:

號所治城曰固麻

They [the Baekje people] call the ruling city */kuo^H mˠa/.

The same toponym is phonetically transcribed 久麻那利 in the Nihon shoki and 고마〮ᄂᆞᄅᆞ (Yale: Kwòmánòlò) in the Yongbi eocheonga, and also logographically written 熊津, so it's a safe bet that 固麻 = 久麻 = 고마〮 = "bear" in Baekje. (Whether this is *kuma or *koma isn't clear.)

But of course the word isn't actually attested as an individual word so I don't think it deserves to be lemmatized.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 23:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Bears and holes

@Eirikr

Currently, this entry and 곰 (gom) both claim an etymological connection between “bear” and “hole” in Korean and Japanese. At least on the Korean side of things, this is wholly spurious.

• “bear” in Middle Korean is kwôm (forgive me for the circumflex, I’m on mobile right now) probably from earlier kwòmá
• 곰 as “hole” is actually wrong (should be 굼) and is from Middle Korean kwùmk-, connective stem of kwùmù “hole”, ultimately from earlier *kwùmùk

How does the Japanese side work out? Vovin seems to think kuma “bear” is a Korean borrowing into Japanese which would make an internal Japonic etymology impossible.—Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 23:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Karaeng Matoaya, thank you for the reworking and the further details above. I'd have to do more digging to suss out the Japonic details. The U of the Ryukyu's online Shuri-Naha Okinawan dictionary site has been down since early September, and they're now two weeks past the mid-October re-opening date, which makes me worry that they're not coming back online any time soon.

I'm curious about the Japonic -- Koreanic vowel correspondences. If JA kuma "bear" is a borrowing into Japonic, we are left with JA kuma "hole" and Koreanic *kwùmùk as possible cognates. Or are they both borrowings into Japonic?

PS: the same anon added Silla / Old Korean content to the Japanese の (no, genitive particle) entry. I'm not entirely happy with how I reformatted; could you have a look?)

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Eirikr I'm not convinced by Vovin's reasoning for "bear" being a borrowing into Japonic. His main argument is that Baekje Korean had *kuma based on the Nihon shoki phonograms, and since *koma is the earlier form (I forget his argument for this but it's around somewhere) both Baekje and Japonic share the same innovation, which is why it must be a borrowing into Japanese.

The issue is that there is actually no solid evidence that Baekje had *kuma instead of *koma because the phonogramic evidence is very ambiguous, even in the Nihon shoki itself which once gives the kana コム for the first element here. So if *koma is indeed original, it could well be a natively Japanese innovation. On the other hand, *koma might be a Japanese loan into Korean, with the quality of the first vowel changed for some reason (e.g. by the innovation of vowel harmony, which appears to not have existed in Old Korean).

I don't know of anyone who has looked into kuma ~ *kwùmùk yet.--Karaeng Matoaya (talk) 08:47, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

@Eirikr "The U of the Ryukyu's online Shuri-Naha Okinawan dictionary site has been down since early September, and they're now two weeks past the mid-October re-opening date, which makes me worry that they're not coming back online any time soon." See here for OKN kuma (OGJ Data Shū, not (just) the JLect entry); I also say the site shutdown is a big problem for me, because Nakijin (Kunigami) and Yamatohama (Northern Amami Oshima) (and Miyako?) dialect data is inaccessible (required for comparative Japonic linguistics), and at my age I can't purchase the original sources.

I've emailed the Kiki Gengo DB asking if they can add the data, but this is what they said:

お問い合わせのあったデータについてはシステム的には登録できますが、著作権の問題がありますので、現時点では登録する予定はありません。

While we could perform a systematic addition of the entries regarding the data you contacted about, we are not planning do this at the moment due to copyright issues.

See also Carlino (2021). Plans to include Nakijin dialect but doesn't include Yamatohama dialect (instead includes Yuwan dialect but only in grammar parts).

I also emailed U of Rs Lib about when their RGOD site will return, but no response (yet).

Data of endangered languages must be preserved and open to the general public, especially for those languages (dialects). Because I have very limited access to these languages. We already have Ainu (a totally different language unrelated to Japonic with the exception of a few borrowings). Now, I GTG. Chuterix (talk) 01:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

P.S. the RGOD site does not load at all. Chuterix (talk) 01:35, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

@Eirikr, @Kwékwlos, @Mellohi!, etc, great news; they've emailed me back the following message:

琉球語音声データベースの担当者より、下記のご連絡をいただいております。
「今年度中にリニューアル公開できるよう準備を進めており、準備を進めております。」
どうぞよろしくお願いします。
We have received the following notice from the person in charge of The Audio Database of the Ryukyuan Language.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are preparing to renew and release the database by March 2024, and preparations are underway."
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Chuterix (talk) 10:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to say the translation was a part of the email reply (above - Chuterix (talk) 20:18, 2 May 2023 (UTC)) (but does that even matter?). Chuterix (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Ryukyuan cognates are in Northern Ryukyuan: Kunigami (Nakijin) kumā, Northern Amami-Oshima (Yamatohama) kuma, Okinawan (Shuri) kuma. I couldn't find Southern Ryukyuan cognates, also as pointed by Vovin (2010) p. 143. This might be a regional wanderwort via Old Chinese as explained in the main entry, acquired by the Baekje, Goguryeo, Korean, Japanese, and Northern Ryukyuan. Chuterix (talk) 01:32, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Some senses

@Atitarev Where did you get the definitions "to oppress, to tyrannise", "mean; malicious; merciless" and "loutish; oafish" from? I cannot find them in major monolingual dictionaries. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:48, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I may have used the ABC dictionary shipped with Wenlin but I can't confirm, since I temporarily can't access it. If I can, I will do another search and re-add (will let you know if I do or discuss). I have removed these senses for now. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:56, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I found it in ABC Chinese-English Comprehensive Dictionary but it doesn't come with any usage examples. If you would like to add them back I will send them to RFV. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:06, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Thanks for checking. As I said, I would check with you. I don't insist on adding them if they can't be confirmed elsewhere. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)