Talk:熟

Mandarin pronunciation tags

@Wyang It's kinda tricky for this character. Both shú and shóu are "standard" in Mainland (according to 普通話異讀詞審音表), while shóu is the only standard in Taiwan (according to both the ROC 88 and 初稿 versions of 國語一字多音審定表), having merged shú (literary) into shóu. What do you think? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

The situation in Taiwan is a bit confusing for me. 萌典 and 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本 have both shu2 and shou2- I'm not sure how much authority we should place on these. The actual situation may be the same as Mainland, i.e. shu2 literary and shou2 colloquial, although 國語一字多音審定表 insists that shou2 is the only standard. Wyang (talk) 06:46, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: (The content on 萌典's 國語辭典 comes from 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本, so there's not much point in looking both up.) I believe I've mentioned this to you before: 國語辭典 does not intend to follow the standard pronunciation. From the Q&A:

教育部各典取音確或有差異，乃因其各有編輯目標與服務對象。例如：《重編國語辭典修訂本》為大型語言辭典，兼收古今音

Thus 國語辭典 is not where we look for the Taiwanese standard, at least in terms of pronunciation. If we're looking at dictionaries published by the MOE that actually follow 國語一字多音審定表, we have 國語辭典簡編本 and 國語小字典, the former having more entries. We also have 兩岸詞典 (which mirrors 中華語文大辭典), which is also supposed to adhere to 國語一字多音審定表. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay. :) I think using shou2 as TW standard is fine, but I feel we need to reword the tags (e.g. pron 2 doesn't mention Mainland.). This is difficult though. Maybe something like "literary standard in Mainland; literary variant in Taiwan" for 1, and "colloquial standard in Mainland; colloquial and literary standard in Taiwan" for 2, but this may be confusing. Wyang (talk) 07:27, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's quite a tricky situation; that's why I didn't change it yet. @Atitarev, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c, Mar vin kaiser, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:37, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not competent in this. —suzukaze (t・c) 09:21, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Neither am I. But I do agree with the 现代汉语规范词典 which states "shú 是文读，shóu 是白读，一般通用的词语均可用这两种读音".

@Suzukaze-c, Tooironic: I should've asked more clearly. Do you think what @Wyang has proposed for the tags was confusing based on what we have found in the standards? If so, is there any better way to word it? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I think the pronunciation information for Mandarin as it stands now looks perfectly fine and clear. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

As of now, putting the word "literary" beside shú indicates that it's literary for both Mainland and Taiwan. So that part's clear. It says standard in Mainland and variant in Taiwan, including the word "literary" encompassing it, which basically gives the same information as saying the lengthy "literary standard in Mainland; literary variant in Taiwan". For shóu, when it just says "colloquial", are we to understand that it's colloquial just in the Mainland, or colloquial on both sides? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

AFAIK, literary/colloquial is "universal", that is, in essence, that is what each reading is for both sides of the strait. It's just that the ROC favours the colloquial reading and makes it the standard, whereas in the Mainland, both literary and colloquial are standard. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:37, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang, Tooironic, Atitarev, Suzukaze-c, Mar vin kaiser How about we just have this (hopefully making things less confusing): shú - "literary; standard in Mainland; variant in Taiwan"; shóu - "colloquial; standard in Mainland and Taiwan"? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Good suggestion, Justin. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:17, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I think this suggested format is pretty good. Wyang (talk) 06:44, 17 January 2017 (UTC)