Talk:見渡す限り

RFD discussion: August 2020–November 2021

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見渡す限り

I added this (probably based upon inclusion in EDICT), but perhaps it is really sum of parts. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 08:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Ya, pretty much any verb + 限り (kagiri, “limit, extent”) winds up meaning "to the extent that one [VERB]s". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:34, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

True, but some of these are common enough that are almost idiomatic. This entry is also listed in NHK accent dictionary as well so it's good to keep I guess. Shen233 (talk) 21:56, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I find the inclusion in the NHK accent dictionary to be a bit confusing.

• 見渡(みわた)す (miwatasu) is unaccented:

みわたす

• 限(かぎ)り (kagiri) as a combining element is accented on the first mora:

か​ぎり

• The two combine in a simple additive fashion:

みわたすか​ぎり

I still hold that this is a sum-of-parts term. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:51, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

One interesting thing I noted in NHK accent dictionary is that they included devoicing on the す. I suppose sum-of-parts but idiomatic?? Shen233 (talk) 01:01, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

If it's only a sum of parts, it's not idiomatic, and vice versa. Devoicing on an unaccented す (su) just before an unvoiced hard stop like the initial /k/ in か (ka) is pretty normal phonology for Japanese, I think, so there's no surprises there. The real question then is whether the meaning is idiomatic, or just a combination of the meanings of the constituent terms. In my understanding, 見渡す限り is just 見渡す + 限り.

By way of comparison, the roughly synonymous English phrase as far as I can tell is used commonly enough to have its own initialism, AFAICT. But, as we can see at that entry, the expanded phrase is a sum of its parts. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:27, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Keep. Fixed enough. It also has an entry on Daijisen. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:35, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

@Shinji, I'm curious why? What makes this a lexical item, any more than 想像する限り, or 食べきる限り? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 22:37, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

限り is usually a concessive construction. 想像する限り means “as far as I can imagine (but that might not be the case beyond that)”. 見渡す限り simply means “as far as I can see” without meaning “but that might not be the case beyond that”. You don’t say 見渡す限りでは, which would be possible if it was concessive. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, I do note instances of this construction, albeit less commonly, as at google books:"見渡す限りでは". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Kept —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:59, 14 November 2021 (UTC)