Talk:選賢與能

xuǎnxiánjǔnéng

@RcAlex36 In this June 2019 edit, I added "xuǎnxiánjǔnéng" as an alternate pronunciation for 選賢與能. That information was removed in this March 2021 edit. The basis I provided for including xuǎnxiánjǔnéng as an alternate pronunciation was (1) Baidu Baike's page on 选贤与能 which in March 2021 still reads (as it did in June 2019) in part "选贤与能，汉语成语，拼音是xuǎn xián jǔ néng，" and "拼音xuǎn xián jǔ néng" (this after four intervening edits from Chinese persons interested in the topic who would be likely to have changed this pronunciation if they knew anything different) and (2) 進階文言文讀本 Literary Chinese for Advanced Beginners, 1997, Taipei, Taiwan (ROC) →ISBN page 13 which reads in part: "25. 與 jǔ". --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@沈澄心 Just wondering, would you pronounce 選賢與能 as xuǎnxiánjǔnéng? RcAlex36 (talk) 04:36, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Also @Justinrleung. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:38, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

PS: Please keep in mind that I absolutely do not mean to say that xuǎnxiánjǔnéng is the only or the authoritative pronunciation. The mainstream, authoritative pronunciation is definitely xuǎnxiányǔnéng. [1] "注音 ㄒㄩㄢˇ　ㄒㄧㄢˊ　ㄩˇ　ㄋㄥˊ 漢語拼音 xuǎn xián yǔ néng". --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:20, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative What's the exact context in 進階文言文讀本? RcAlex36 (talk) 12:40, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I guess I did leave that a bit vague. The jǔ pronunciation is part of the 25th definition provided to explain the passage of the Book of Rites quoted in part in the Etymology section here. It says "25. 與 jǔ 同舉 推薦 選拔". Definition 24 is for 賢 and definition 26 is for 能. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:57, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: This appears to be related to the issue of pronunciation of 通假字. There are two approaches: pronouncing the character written in the text (通假字), and pronouncing the character that the 通假字 is supposed to represent (i.e. the 被通假字). For this chengyu which contains a 通假字, most chengyus dictionaries in the link in my edit summary choose the first approach, while your textbook chooses the second approach. I'm not sure how educated speakers actually pronounce this particular chengyu. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:23, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@Tooironic, 沈澄心, TongcyDai, H2NCH2COOH, Austin_Zhang, Bula Hailan Any opinion on this matter? How would you (naturally) pronounce 選賢與能? yǔ (ㄩˇ) or jǔ (ㄐㄩˇ) for 與? I mean if jǔ is also acceptable we can keep both. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:27, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Knowing that 與 in 選賢與能 is a 通假字 of 舉, I pronounce 選賢與能 as xuǎnxiánjǔnéng. But actually I never use this word in spoken Chinese. --沈澄心✉ 13:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I have never heard of this term before either. But since 與 here is apparently a 通假字 of 舉, I supposed it should be pronounced as jǔ. Bula Hailan (talk) 13:58, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I found a discussion on Douban Group here [2], it seems many of them recalled that the pronunciation of 與 in 選賢與能 was taught as jǔ in school, but yǔ is also acceptable. Bula Hailan (talk) 14:10, 14 March 2021 (UTC) (Archived version of that discussion) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

As far as I know, xuǎn xián jǔ néng is the ONLY correct pronunciation in school. As stated above, 與/与 is actually an equivalent to 舉/举 here, and in this word, intertextuality can be found if you conmbine the 1st and 3rd characters, which then become 選舉/选举, the etymology of "election" in Chinese. This word it actually means 選舉賢能/选举贤能, or choosing and electing the talents. You can't really pronounce 與/与 as its modern pronunciation because they are not the same thing in the first place. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 07:23, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I think xuǎn xián jǔ néng is the correct pronunciation, and it's the pronunciation I was taught in school. But Mandarin textbooks in Taiwan seems to have differences on this, and Ministry of Education Mandarin Chinese Dictionary only gives xuǎn xián yǔ néng. --TongcyDai (talk) 11:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)