Talk:돈

Etymology of money sense

Any chance this is from OZH 銅／铜 (tóng) instead? The pronunciation is a clearer match, as the initial consonant in the Chinese has never been an affricate. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Comparing 錢 (OC *ʔslenʔ, *zlen) and 銅 (OC *doːŋ), this seems plausible, especially since usage of 錢／钱 for the sense "money" only appeared around the time of Middle Chinese whereas 銅／铜 (tóng) has been used for the sense "money" from an earlier period:

論者嫌其銅臭 [Literary Chinese, trad.]
论者嫌其铜臭 [Literary Chinese, simp.]

From: The Book of the Later Han, circa 5^th century CE

lùn zhě xián qí tóngchòu [Pinyin]

People suspected that his money was smelly.

. KevinUp (talk) 10:21, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

돈 (don) probably came from a weight unit, 전 (jeon).

1냥 (nyang)= 10전 (jeon)= 100푼 (pun)= 37.5g.

전 (jeon) and 돈 (don) were used interchangeably until the late Goryeo period because of palatalization. Also see Korean surname 장 (jang), 조 (jo) and 정 (jeong), which were origianlly written as 댱 (dyang), 됴 (dyo) and 뎡 (dyeong).

If we look at the monetary unit of France and Britain, they were also a unit for weight. Libre(489.5g) and Pound(453.6g). And Don(3.75g)

B2V22BHARAT (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

@B2V22BHARAT, I don't think that works.

On semantic grounds, I'll grant that English pound, French livre, etc. show usage of terms for weight as terms for currency. I'd like to also point out that English has other terms for currency based on metal, such as brass or copper or nickel. The analogy to other languages doesn't rule out 돈 (don) from 銅.

Separately, 돈 (don) has no apparent palatalization, and no apparent older form 됸 (dyon). Also, the vowel value is wrong. In the examples you gave, the core vowel value is the same in both palatal and non-palatal versions:

• 장 (jang) ≅ 댱 (dyang): both have /a/
• 조 (jo) ≅ 됴 (dyo): both have /o/
• 정 (jeong) ≅ 뎡 (dyeong): both have /ʌ/

But the core vowel doesn't match for this purported pair:

• 전 (jeon) ≇ 돈 (don): /ʌ/ ≠ /o/

Also, there is a different pair that already aligns with 전 (jeon):

• 전 (jeon) ≅ 뎐 (dyeon), for 田

Barring any additional evidence showing the existence of an older palatalized form 됸 (dyon), and some means of explaining the change from /o/ to /ʌ/, I think we can rule out a sound shift from 돈 (don) to 전 (jeon) purely on phonetic grounds. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

@Eiríkr Útlendi According to the book I read, 돈의 철학 (donui cheolhak, “The philosophy of money”) by 임석민 (imseongmin), in page 25, there are many theories about the origin of calling the Korean currency as 돈 (don). The most credible theory, according to the author is that the Chinese character 錢 (OC *ʔslenʔ, *zlen) came to Korea as a term for currency, and it was read as 전 (jeon) and 돈 (don) until the late Goryeo period and was unified into 돈 (don) after the invention of Hangeul.

Also, please take a look at the fact that 전 (jeon) and 돈 (don) have the same ㄴ (n) 받침 (batchim) at the bottom.

In addition, the Chinese character 銅／铜 (tóng) was recorded as 도ᇰ in 훈몽자회 (hunmongjahoe), and the bottom consonant is different from 돈 (don).

I've seen many early forms of Korean words so far, but there have been a lot of vowel movements, but I've rarely seen consonant movements except for palatalization.

In fact, vowel shift is common in Korea. For example, Korean word 짧다 (jjalda) which means "short," was originally written as 뎌르다 (dyeoreuda).

• 뎌르다 (dyeoreuda) ≇ 짧다 (jjalda): /ʌ/ ≠ /a/

What do you think about this?

But I also think that the 돈 (don) might have come from 銅／铜 (tóng), which is read as 동 (dong) because Hangeul is a phonetic alphabet. In fact, in Korea and Japan, people use 金 (jīn) to mean money, and historically 金 (jīn) meant copper, and copper, as you know, is related to bronze, so it makes sense.

However, I want to put more weight on my first hypothesis because 錢 (OC *ʔslenʔ, *zlen) was read as 전 (jeon) and 돈 (don)" until the late Goryeo period according to the book and the consonant shift from 전 (jeon) to 돈 (don) is consistent with the palatalization, and vowel changes were common as seen in the example of 뎌르다 (dyeoreuda) and 짧다 (jjalda), and the concept of weight also appeared in foreign currency (Britain and France).

In any case, it is false to claim that money came from the current etymology of 돌다 (dolda, “to turn”) and needs to be corrected. B2V22BHARAT (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Page 25, in 돈의 철학 by 임석민:

돈의 어원

우리나라 화폐를 '돈이라' 부르게 된 유래에 대해 여러 설이 있다. 한자의 전(錢)이 화폐를 뜻하는 말로 쓰였고, 錢을 '전'과 '돈'으로 읽었는데, 고려 말까지 '전'과 '돈'이 같이 쓰이다가, 한글창제 후 '돈'으로 통일되어싸는 설이 가장 신빙성이 있다. 약제나 귀금속의 무게를 재는 중량단위인 '전'이 '돈'으로 변하여 사용되어 오다가 '돈'으로 정착된 것이다. 금 1'돈'=3.75g,이라 할때의 '돈'이다.

영어의 Money는 라틴어 'moneta'에서 유래된 것이다. 로마의 유노 모네타(Juno Moneta) 신전 근처의 조폐소에서 만들어진 돈을 '모네타'라고 불렀고, 모네타가 옛 프랑스어 'moneie'를 거쳐 영어의 'money'가 되었다.

• 돈의 명칭은 무게를 나타내는 말에서 나왔다. 우리의 경우 1냥=10전(=돈)=100푼(分=文)=37.5g이다. 프랑스의 옛 화폐단위인 리브르(490g, 1803년 나폴레옹이 '프랑'으로 변경)와 영국의 파운드(453.6g) 등도 무게단위의 호칭이다.

I hope this information can help many international readers who are curious about the origin of money. Sincerely, B2V22BHARAT (talk) 09:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Second quote from [1] that explains the origin of money.

돈01’의 어원은 분명하지 않으나, 이에 관련된 어원설은 다양하다. 민간에서는 오래전부터 ‘돈’의 어원을 ‘돌다[回]’에서 온 것 또는 한자 ‘동(銅)’과 ‘은(銀)’이 합음(合音)된 것 등으로 설명해 왔다. 그러나 이들 설은 그야말로 민간어원에 불과하다. 이 외에도 ‘돈’이 칼을 뜻하는 ‘刀’에서 유래했다는 설이 있다. 고려 말까지 ‘錢’과 ‘刀’는 화폐를 의미하는 뜻으로 나란히 쓰였고, 소리도 ‘도’와 ‘돈’으로 같이 쓰이다가 조선시대에 한글이 창제된 뒤 ‘돈’으로 통일되었다는 것이다. 그리고 고려시대에 ‘刀’가 무게의 단위 ‘돈쭝(1돈쭝은 한 돈쯤 되는 무게)’으로 변용되어 ‘도’가 ‘돈’으로 와전되었다고 보기도 한다. 또한 ‘돈’은 한 사람이 많이 가지게 되면 칼의 화를 입기 때문에 그것을 훈계하기 위해 ‘돈’을 ‘刀’라 하고 그것을 ‘돈’으로 읽었다고 설명하기도 한다. 고대 무덤에서 출토되는 명도전(明刀錢)과 같은 화폐가 칼 모양으로 생겼다는 것이 이 설명의 증거 자료로 제시된다. 그러나 ‘刀’에서 유래했다는 설은 ‘도’가 ‘돈’으로 바뀐 이유가 분명하지 않기 때문에 선뜻 받아들이기 어렵다. 한편 ‘돈’의 어원을 한자 ‘錢’의 중국 상고음 ‘dzjan’에서 구하기도 한다. ‘錢’과 ‘돈’의 의미가 같고 또 음운론적으로 그 변화를 설명할 수 있다는 점에서 설득력이 있다. B2V22BHARAT (talk) 15:13, 26 October 2020 (UTC)