Talk:Kharkiv

English pronunciations

Hi @Atitarev. I don't think Kharkiv with [x-] is normal in English pronunciation. Someone trying for an 'authentic' pronunciation might use it, but then they'd likely be using other sounds like [ä] or [r] as well; at that point we might as well just copy-paste the Ukrainian pronunciation here. I think this entry should rather focus on the pronunciations that English speakers produce with their native phonology.

As for the devoicing of the final consonant to [f], I can only imagine this happening to someone with a Russian accent, and that isn't the kind of pronunciation that we put on our English entries. (And someone with that accent would, in any case, produce an overall pronunciation like [ˈxär(ʲ)kʲɪf, -əf], I imagine.)

These are the three notable variations that I notice among native anglophones pronunciations of Kharkiv:

1) /k-/ versus /h-/

2) Stress on the first versus second syllable

3) /-(ˈ)iv/ vs. /-ɪv/ (I've never heard the latter stressed)

That results in six different combinations, all of which can be heard e.g. here: https://youglish.com/pronounce/Kharkiv/english? Nicodene (talk) 05:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: I am closely following the news and I picked up pronunciations, which are closer to what should be considered "right" or more less standard, at least from the word stress point of view. Both /x/ and /h/ can be heard more frequently. British reporters are better at correctly imitating foreign names than American. No, this is not Ukrainian or Russian pronunciation but the anglicised pronunciation with the right word stress.

I admit, I haven't heard the devoiced /f/ on this particular city name and I am happy to remove the /f/ cases. It is present at Kiev entry. City names like Ки́їв (Kýjiv), Ха́рків (Xárkiv), Черні́гів (Černíhiv), Микола́їв (Mykolájiv) are still often pronounced with the final /-f/ in the Ukrainian media and by the general population, which is non-standard of course. Mixed with Russian pronunciations, it must be influencing how Anglophone TV anchors (still) reproduce it. I don't know what you call this phenomenon.

Stressing the 2nd syllable does happen in the media, of course, but it's really bad and doesn't make sense, so I didn't feel like adding it as non-standard. Feel free to add it. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:49, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Would something like /ˈhɑːkiːv, x-, k-, -ɪv, -ˈiːv/ be acceptable on Wiktionary, to avoid repetition? Nicodene (talk) 06:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@Nicodene: I am not familiar with this notation and personally don't like it. It prefer to list all. Rhotic pronunciations are often heard as well. Regarding the 2nd syllable stressed and the final /f/ perhaps that would be promoting wrong pronunciations before they even settled in the English media? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:11, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean rhotic pronunciations in British English, with some kind of 'Ukrainizing' alveolar tap or trill, or do you just mean the American pronunciations with /ɹ/?

I don't know if we have the authority to just decide that some of the pronunciations are wrong. Certainly stress on the second syllable is hard to justify, considering the Ukrainian pronunciation, but so, I think, is initial /k/ instead of a fricative. A final /f/ could plausibly occur in some russified Ukrainian pronunciation, and that could be imitated by Anglophones, but I don't think I've ever actually witnessed this for any of the above city names. Nicodene (talk) 06:33, 5 April 2022 (UTC)