Talk:Muddy Mississippi

RFD discussion: February–May 2023

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Muddy Mississippi

This is just Mississippi with an adjective. It may be a common collocation, and the same river is sometimes called the Big Muddy, but it's just a description in this phrase. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

But capitalized? Drapetomanic (talk) 05:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

this is just completely absurd, i've never heard this in my life .,. i think at this point we're just inventing terms, i've never heard this, it's not written, it's not spoken, and it's certainly not used in academic or scientific discourse.. Technicalrestrictions01 (talk) 13:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I found 3 capitalized uses on Google Scholar, I think keep Drapetomanic (talk) 17:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Drapetomanic, @Technicalrestrictions01: Y'all, this is RFD not RFV. AG202 (talk) 18:40, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

what is the v for Technicalrestrictions01 (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

WT:RFV, V for verification, is where entries go for verification (ex: finding out if the word actually exists through the process mentioned at WT:ATTEST). RFD is where entries go if folks believe that they do not fall under our inclusion criteria at WT:CFI, ex: if the word is sum-of-parts (SOP), encyclopedic, etc., but not where entries are sent if people believe that the word doesn't exist. I hope that clears things up. AG202 (talk) 18:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

yeah well i thought it was some snarky remark not a serious working reference to something that exists in reality Technicalrestrictions01 (talk) 14:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Welp, this is a common occurrence, so I had the explanation ready. AG202 (talk) 23:44, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

So my rationale is that it's a name not just a collocation, and the use of capitals - including in scholarly sources - demonstrates that. Drapetomanic (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide links to these sources? I see capitals in article titles but not so much in the texts.  --Lambiam 12:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

[1] [2] [3] Drapetomanic (talk) 14:24, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Since the third source is quoting a book of Jeffrey Jerome Cohen, the same book as referenced in the first source, these count as one. Note that Cohen also uses the monikers “Blue Mississippi (or Old Blue, as the river is sometimes called)”^[4] and “Brown Mississippi”.^[5] The middle source is curious. The use of “Muddy Mississippi River” with quote signs appears to imply that they are quoting this term from the agreement between the Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of St. Louis and Mssrs. Wilson & Fox. But the text of that agreement simply refers to “works for the supply of the City of St. Louis with clarified water from the Mississippi River”.^[6]  --Lambiam 15:33, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Does it refer to the whole river, or just the southern reaches where the land is flat and the river becomes broad and slow-flowing? If the latter, that would be a good argument that it isn't just "muddy" + "Mississippi (River)". —Soap— 04:20, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Downstream of the confluence with the Missouri, apparently Drapetomanic (talk) 15:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I vote keep on that basis, then, and I think that alone is enough to stave off the argument that this is just sum-of-parts ... muddy does not mean "south", "slow-flowing", "downstream", or anything similar just by itself, and the Mississippi River is never reduced to just its southern half in other contexts so far as I know. Thanks, —Soap— 14:15, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Should the definition be updated accordingly, then? 70.172.194.25 22:31, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Sometimes we put "common collocations" in an entry (something I'm always been ambivalent about): perhaps this is one. Equinox ◑ 07:15, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

keep. Per the discussion above, this is not SOP. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

RFD kept. No consensus to delete after several months. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)