Talk:Standard English

Deletion discussion

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Standard English

Standard (may need specific linguistics definition) + English. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 02:35, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Delete, and I don't think a special definition of standard is necessary. --WikiTiki89 02:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Keep. Defined at Oxford, Merriam-Webster, etc. BTW, keep those with "Ancient", "Old", "Modern", "Eastern" prefixes languages one may have appetite for. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Old English, Modern English, etc. are the names of specific languages. Standard English is any register of English considered standard. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 03:40, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The border between languages and registered is often blurred. Modern Standard Arabic is both a register and a quite distinct language if compared to Arabic dialects but not so, if compared to Classical Arabic. Standard Chinese (it's missing but it shouldn't, = Mandarin) and Standard Mandarin are also complicated. Anyway, the term is defined in notorious dictionaries, using Lemming principle, we should keep it. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

You are right about MSA, but that does not apply to English. --WikiTiki89 05:57, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The Lemming principle is still applicable and whether it is a register or a language, it's a word. I'm not encouraging to have Standard + plus language name entries but for Standard English there are English definitions (more than one) (I gave a SoP Russian translation станда́ртный англи́йский язы́к m (standártnyj anglíjskij jazýk) because I haven't found a dictionary entry for it.). The standard Spanish is not called "Standard Spanish" but "Castilian Spanish". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:06, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

The OED for example does not have a separate definition for it, instead mentioning it as an example of standard definition 3e: "Applied to that variety of a spoken or written language of a country or other linguistic area which is generally considered the most correct and acceptable form, as Standard English, Standard American, etc.; Received Standard; also, standard pronunciation = received pronunciation n." --WikiTiki89 06:17, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

OED definition, although "standard" is in lower case: [mass noun] The form of the English language widely accepted as the usual correct form. In Merriam-Webster both words are capitalised. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Oxford Dictionaries is not the Oxford English Dictionary? --WikiTiki89 07:33, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. Merriam-Webster is still valid and is in the right case. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying Merriam-Webster is not valid or even that Oxford Dictionaries is not valid. I'll make my point about the OED explicit: The OED acknowledges the existence of "Standard English" by mentioning it as a boldface example of "standard", yet it does not include it as a headword. That can only mean that the editors of the most prestigious English dictionary did not find the phrase idiomatic, since it is clear they did just simply leave it out due to oversight. --WikiTiki89 07:50, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Standard Spanish is called Standard Spanish. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 06:19, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Any language can have a standard register. I'm not asking to create or keep Standard Spanish, I don't see a definition for Castilian Spanish either. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:26, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. I don’t see why Standard English is idiomatic. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 07:36, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I mean I don't see a definition for standard Spanish names in dictionaries but there is "Standard English". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:44, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Delete. A linguistic definition of standard is needed, since its technical definition appears in linguistic dictionaries and glossaries.

Can someone provide a good link to WT:Lemming principle? I hate it when I can’t find guidelines that specifically support other editors’ arguments and really exist. —Michael Z. 2014-03-26 17:00 z

The lemming test is one of several potentially (though not necessarily) persuasive tests, outlined at WT:IDIOM, based on simple precedent / examination of which entries have survived RFD in the past and what arguments were made in favour of them. - -sche (discuss) 18:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

A brief discussion of formalizing and automaticizing the lemming principle for inclusion decisions is at WT:BP#Proposal: Use Lemming principle to speed RfDs. DCDuring TALK 19:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. So it appears to me that #Lemming identifies a principle that has been applied, but makes no recommendation for applying or disregarding it in specific cases. Is that a fair interpretation? —Michael Z. 2014-03-27 15:38 z

That's right, I think. The proposal.is an attempt to give it a formal definition for a limited purpose. It is mach like many of the list of idiomaticity indicators advanced by Pauley. It is just particularly easy to implement at any of several levels of inclusion on the list of lemmings. — This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talk • contribs).

• Keep. Why is it "Standard English" and not "standard English"? Furthermore, in “Standard English”, in OneLook Dictionary Search., Oxford Dictionaries (not OED), AHD, Collins, Macmillan, and even Merriam-Webster's have the term. One semantic quirk of the term "Standard English" might be that it is not English as prescribed by a regulatory body. As for Received Standard, I would not know what it is from looking at received and standard, yet in “Received Standard”, in OneLook Dictionary Search., fewer dictionaries have it, including Merriam-Webster's. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:17, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Kept for lack of consensus to delete. bd2412 T 16:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Emerging World Standard Spoken English

Aka EWSSE Backinstadiums (talk) 11:07, 23 June 2022 (UTC)