Talk:Wimbledon

RFD

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Wimbledon

Delete the two "sports club" senses per Talk:São Paulo and Talk:UCLA. - -sche (discuss) 22:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete: per nom Purplebackpack89 22:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we should, the interesting links to Wikipedia would be lost. It's not all that far (10 miles or so) from where I live. Donnanz (talk) 22:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

We could have them as links under "See also". They don't have to be separate sense lines. Equinox ◑ 23:52, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Deleting the definition doesn't necessarily mean deleting the links to Wikipedia. Renard Migrant (talk) 00:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Keep both - the definitions are accurate. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:33, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

  Accuracy aside, are they different to the definition of the place in London? The Wimbledon in 'Wimbledon F.C.' and 'AFC Wimbledon' refers to the actual place called 'Wimbledon'. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:46, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete. Per previous discussion cited above, any sporting club named after a city could then become a definition of that city's name. Do we really want to add separate senses for every sports franchise under its current or former host city's name? For New York, that would mean as many as forty-two different senses (assuming I haven't left any out, which I probably have). What would we find for Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, or Los Angeles? Even small-town America has lots of these. The names of every notable city and town in the world would be engulfed by a parade of sports teams. Even if you argue for restraint, should every city or town also have a sense, "any of various sports teams located in and named after ~"? I think it would be a good idea to make not having such senses an official policy.

1. The New York Giants baseball team (until 1957). 2. The New York Yankees baseball team (Highlanders until circa 1914). 3. The New York Mets baseball team. 4. The New York Knickerbockers baseball team (1840s–1860s). 5. The New York Mutuals baseball team (1857-1876). 6. The New York Metropolitans baseball team (1880–1887). 7. The New York Giants baseball team (Players' League, 1890). 8. The New York Black Yankees baseball team (1931–1948). 9. The New York Cubans baseball team (1935–1950). 10. The New York Giants football team. 11. The New York Jets football team (Titans until 1963). 12. The New York Giants football team (1919–1922). 13. The New York Yankees football team (1926–1929). 14. The New York Yankees football team (1936–1937). 15. The New York Tigers football team (1937). 16. The New York Yankees football team (1940–1941; Americans in 1941). 17. The New York Yankees football team (American Association, 1941). 18. The New York Yankees football team (1946–1949). 19. The New York Yanks football team (1949–1951; Bulldogs in 1949). 20. The New York Stars football team (1974). 21. The New York Knights arena football team (1988). 22. The New York CityHawks arena football team (1997–1998). 23. The New York Dragons arena football team (2001–2008). 24. The New York Sharks football team. 25. The New York Knights rugby football league team. 26. The New York Raiders rugby league football team (2003–2013). 27. The New York Athletic Club rugby union team. 28. The New York Knickerbockers basketball team. 29. The New York Liberty basketball team. 30. The New York Nets basketball team (1968–1977). 31. The New York Rangers hockey team. 32. The New York Islanders hockey team. 33. The New York Americans hockey team (1925–1941). 34. The New York Raiders hockey team (1972–1974, Golden Blades 1973–1974). 35. The New York Rovers hockey team (1935–1952, 1959–1961, 1964–1965). 36. The New York Red Bulls soccer team. 37. The New York City Football Club soccer team. 38. The New York Cosmos soccer team. 39. The New York Cosmos soccer team (1970–1985). 40. The New York Rumble ultimate frisbee team. 41. The New York Arrows indoor soccer team (1978–1984). 42. The New York Magpies Australian rules football team. P Aculeius (talk) 13:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe that any of those teams are just called "New York" are they? SemperBlotto (talk) 13:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Sure they are. "Boston took three of four from New York during their last series." - TheDaveRoss 13:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. You can add then if you have nothing better to do. SemperBlotto (talk) 13:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we should probably include them as it is a standard construction. The same thing applies to virtually every town, at least in the US. We would refer to opposing teams by the names of the towns from which they came, but I don't think "A high school football team from Hanover, NH" is really a definition of "Hanover" etc. They would certainly be citable, though, since the local papers also use the same construction. - TheDaveRoss 13:58, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Right. The list above is just the tip of the metonymy iceberg. google books:"beat New York at" cricket can be used to cite several sense-lines denoting different small university cricket teams, and google books:"beat Dubuque" shows that even small places will grow by a large number of sense-lines. @SemperBlotto, how about phrases like "[the] Americans won the [World] Cup"; do you think "American" or "Americans" should have a separate sense-line "# The US national soccer (football) team." ? - -sche (discuss) 20:03, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Keep This is an unusual case, since the more easily citable team is the one that no longer exists.— Pingku^dimmi 14:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, it does still exist, but under a new name in a different town. They are known as the Dons (both teams I suppose, it's short for Wimbledon), a name I can relate to. Donnanz (talk) 15:01, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Milton Keynes Dons F.C., with a nod to its origins. An interesting philosophical point: is it still the same team if all the members, the management, the location, most of the fans and the name have all changed? Apparently yes, and doubtless there are people who still call it "Wimbledon". And yes, it seems they were called the Dons, as well as the Wombles.— Pingku^dimmi 05:24, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete per TDR and Aculeius. This is a particularly generic sort of metonymy. It contrasts with superficially similar metonymy, like White House, Pentagon, Number 10, Whitehall, for which the selection of the building does not follow a standard pattern. It is more like using Albany to refer to NY state government. DCDuring TALK 15:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

  Indeed. As I commented on Talk:UCLA, this is just the routine phenomenon that a representative part of a group can be referred to as the group. "[The] Americans won the Fina Cup in Barcelona, Spain." (Not every American; many Americans didn't even compete.) "Wikipedia deleted [[w:Aqua-hoochie]] in 2006." (Actually, it was only deleted by one admin, not by the site itself or by every user working in unison or in sequence.) - -sche (discuss) 18:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• To hell with it, I'm voting keep. An entry for Wimbledon is needed anyway, so the football clubs may as well be included in it for completeness. There seems to be a certain amount of polarisation in the voting so far. Donnanz (talk) 15:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I can only imagine how many definitions United, City and Town will end up with. United will be over 100 for sure. Good luck trying to agree on an order for them! Renard Migrant (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete per nom; if kept, do not apply this as a rule. If we are to have anything separate from the main definition for any of these, it should be a single line with a second level of indentation saying, "by extension, athletic, competitive, or demonstrative teams from that location". Outside of athletics, New York could just as easily beat Boston in a chess tournament, a team trivia contest, or a team pie-eating contest. I will concede that Boston would almost certainly win the pie-eating contest. bd2412 T 16:38, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed: I was thinking of Scrabble, or pub darts. Delete. Equinox ◑ 17:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Delete, as the 'Wimbledon' in the title of the two football clubs refers to Wimbledon, the place in London. Similarly the Leeds in 'Leeds United' refers to the actual city of Leeds. It's not some sort of crazy coincidence that Leeds United is in Leeds. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Funny that, what about at Leeds Castle in Kent? Donnanz (talk) 00:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Leeds Castle is also in Leeds. Keith the Koala (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

No mention of a castle in the article on Leeds, Yorkshire. Donnanz (talk) 20:00, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

And? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:48, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete senses for sports clubs that are in entries for place names. Governed by WT:NSE, and therefore, CFI gives editors discretion on how to handle them. bd2412 above shows how varied and generic this type of metonymy is. As an auxiliary guide, I checked “Wimbledon”, in OneLook Dictionary Search. and found no dictionary including sport teams. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:35, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
• Delete. This is quite transparent: if we imagine Scrilp and Glarg as two cities, then "Scrilp beat Glarg 14-13 in overtime" makes perfect sense. There are all kinds of interesting details about Wimbledon's sports teams, but they're not lexicographically significant. The fact that someone lives near there is irrelevant. I live in Los Angeles, which also has plenty of weirdness regarding sports teams, but I wouldn't want to clutter the Los Angeles entry with the Rams, Raiders, Dons, Lakers, Clippers, Sparks, Dodgers, Angels, Kings, Sharks, Galaxy, Aztecs, Lazers, Wolves, etc. (see w:Category:Sports teams in Los Angeles, California for dozens more). Chuck Entz (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
• Delete. However, we have plenty of abbreviations of sports team - Man U, LUFC, Atleti etc. Also, we have Arsenal (should probably be deleted), but not Chelsea. --Ce mot-ci (talk) 15:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Not really germane, since this discussion is about Wimbledon, not Arsenal, but: if Arsenal were well known as the name of a city or town, then it would make sense to delete it as a definition. But in fact, it's named after the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich, where the founding members of the football club worked. It's not a city or town, and in fact no longer an active facility, having ceased production nearly fifty years ago. Most people searching for the word will either want the common noun or the football club; curiosity about the original Woolwich Arsenal is likely to be derived from the football club's popularity (though certainly not in every case). So it wouldn't really make sense to delete Arsenal, as it's not merely one of many likely uses of the name of a town or village, as are "London" or "Birmingham" or "Los Angeles". P Aculeius (talk) 15:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• RFD deleted per consensus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:32, 12 March 2016 (UTC)